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Best General of WWII?

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  • #61
    USA-E-Logistics2-6.jpg

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    • #62
      And in Warsaw, after encouraging the Polish Home Army to rise against the Germans and promising support, the Russians deliberately failed to support them, allowing the Germans to defeat them. Some allies...
      We are not now that strength which in old days
      Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
      Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
      To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Gooner View Post
        Eisenhower deliberately refused to take Berlin and Patton, who had reached Pilsen outside of Prague, was recalled by Eisenhower.
        We are not now that strength which in old days
        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Massena View Post
          And in Warsaw, after encouraging the Polish Home Army to rise against the Germans and promising support
          The ones who "encouraged" the Warsaw uprising were Poles themselves, who didn't have either authority or possibilities to lend any support.
          https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...36002#p1236002
          Russians deliberately failed to support them
          That's not true.

          Worth to add that AK leadership didn't even try to discuss their plans with the Red Army. So:
          66bd42562c960e2a2f8a97a851e67271.jpg




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          • #65
            Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post

            Agree, you miss the scale, depth, and densities of the Red Army operations in 1944 and 1945. And, you forget, the Red Army fought the major portion of the German forces on the eastern front.
            With the German divisions spread much thinner, and IIRC at a lower state of combat readiness, and with a lower proportion of mobile divisions.

            Average length of front of German divisions:
            Normandy 7km
            Belorussian operations 16-25km

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
              Worth to add that AK leadership didn't even try to discuss their plans with the Red Army.
              I think the only outsider who ever got to see Red Army plans was Giffard Martel.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                Worst outcome would probably be nearer the better part of 10 divisions lost.

                And no successful invasion of Western Europe in 1944 and thus no defeat of Germany in 1945.
                There were no such force in the first days and after this delay, there were no possibility for Germans to push the Allies in the sea.
                There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Massena View Post
                  And in Warsaw, after encouraging the Polish Home Army to rise against the Germans and promising support, the Russians deliberately failed to support them, allowing the Germans to defeat them. Some allies...
                  They were not allies. Polish Armies formed in USSR were allies.

                  Also, if they wanted help, they should have captured bridges over Vistula.
                  There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Massena View Post

                    Eisenhower deliberately refused to take Berlin and Patton, who had reached Pilsen outside of Prague, was recalled by Eisenhower.
                    With the forces Germans had, it would be hardly possible.
                    There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Aber View Post

                      With the German divisions spread much thinner, and IIRC at a lower state of combat readiness, and with a lower proportion of mobile divisions.

                      Average length of front of German divisions:
                      Normandy 7km
                      Belorussian operations 16-25km
                      Gooner's map shows an advance 280-320 miles in three months, compared to less than a month in a comparable distance with the Vistula-Oder operation, and when, in general, the German Army was less strength in west, wanted to surrender to the Western Allies, and held tenaciously against the Red Army.
                      Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Aber View Post
                        I think the only outsider who ever got to see Red Army plans was Giffard Martel.
                        Probably, but they fought on different fronts. As a matter of fact the AK or Polish government in exile didn't receive any assurance of Soviet support, neither they tried for arrange for such support before the uprising. In fact they didn't even bother to inform about the start of uprising. It was supposed to be purely Polish business. Given all that Polish complains that they were "betrayed by allies" are somehow misplaces

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
                          Probably, but they fought on different fronts.
                          No, he saw the Eastern Front

                          In March 1943, Martel became the Head of the Military Mission to the Soviet Union. He assessed the effectiveness of the Soviet order of battle and tactics during a visit to the frontline in the Kursk-Oryol region between 11 and 19 May 1943. In his autobiography, Martel describes advising the Soviet High Command, Stavka, to allow the Germans to strike first at the Battle of Kursk.
                          I don't believe all the claims he makes about his advice being taken, but his description of interactions with the the Red Army feels right.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post

                            Gooner's map shows an advance 280-320 miles in three months, compared to less than a month in a comparable distance with the Vistula-Oder operation, and when, in general, the German Army was less strength in west, wanted to surrender to the Western Allies, and held tenaciously against the Red Army.
                            I'm sure you're aware that it took 6 weeks to get the first 30 odd miles to the Rhine, and that there was intense fighting west of the Rhine. Per Montgomery

                            "the enemy parachute troops fought with a fanaticism un-excelled at any time in the war"; "the volume of fire from enemy weapons was the heaviest which had so far been met by British troops in the campaign.
                            Then there was an assault crossing of the largest river in Europe (and for some a second assault crossing of the lower Elbe) before it turned into mobile warfare.

                            And you didn't address my point of the thinness of the German forces on the Eastern Front in 1944 compared to Normandy - a breakthrough is much easier against a lower category division spread half as thin.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Aber View Post
                              And you didn't address my point of the thinness of the German forces on the Eastern Front in 1944 compared to Normandy - a breakthrough is much easier against a lower category division spread half as thin.
                              After Bagration, the land mass begins to neck down between the Baltic Sea and the Carpathian Mountains. Red Army operations in late fall and early winter 1944-45 targeted the German strategic flanks, reaching the Baltic Coast and the Budapest region. German forces dispatched to meet the crisis on the flanks barely held. German defenses in Poland and East Prussia were penetrated rapidly and the Red Army advanced west destroying Army Groups A and Center. These catastrophic defeats lost Germany much of the industry that had been dispersed in Poland to shield it from Allied bombing. The Soviet estimates Germany lost 60 divisions, 1300 tanks and a similar number of aircraft with the loss in manpower in excess of 660,000. Additionally, 556,000 troops were isolated in Courland and East Prussian and virtually irrelevant to future operations. There's the real thinning. Another part of the thinning was the decline in Axis allies.
                              Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Emtos View Post

                                There were no such force in the first days and after this delay,
                                You really don't know much about D-Day 6th June. Eight full divisions were established ashore by the end of the day, with the first brigades/regiments of three others and six or seven brigades, in total about 11 division equivalents.
                                Last edited by Gooner; 19 Jun 20, 04:43.

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