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Best General of WWII?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Emtos View Post

    There was not many different options with the cards he had at hand.
    True. But in this case Zhukovs reluctance to call a failure a failure cost a lot of lives. He broke the cardinal rule of reinforcing failure. Sure, I wouldn't want to admit defeat too quickly around Stalin either, but his place wasn't really in jeopardy.

    I think, in that particular instance, that Model out-generaled him significantly.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DingBat View Post

      True. But in this case Zhukovs reluctance to call a failure a failure cost a lot of lives. He broke the cardinal rule of reinforcing failure. Sure, I wouldn't want to admit defeat too quickly around Stalin either, but his place wasn't really in jeopardy.

      I think, in that particular instance, that Model out-generaled him significantly.
      A victory can be separeted from a failure by only a couple of battalions. In case of "Mars", Germans were also busy with Stalingrad which increased the chances of success.
      There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Emtos View Post

        He was arrogant first of all. Bureacrats were much more efficient for winning the war.
        Armies are not long armies without logistics but logistical genius is often not as bureaucratic as people suppose.

        That bureaucracy is a necessary part of any large human endeavor is self evident. What isn't evident to most people is when the rules should be broken.

        Bureaucracies are not designed to be efficient they are designed for self preservation which can be seen as a kind of efficiency in the sense that predictability prevents chaos. Efficiency in war can be measured in how many of the enemy you destroy compared to your own loses which often requires imagination on the part of commanders to achieve.
        We hunt the hunters

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        • #19
          Anyone mention Yamashita yet?

          Pruitt
          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Massena View Post

            Patton was the only American commander the Germans were scared of.
            .
            This is probably mythical and overly spread by the Patton movie and post war hero worship, see Yeide's Patton book and others. Yeide's book is from the perspective of the German commanders who fought Patton. The FMS are also available online, I have personally never seen evidence for this. .

            The 3rd Army struggled in the fall of 1944, partly due to resource constraints and also failed operational planning to seize Fortress Metz and its environs. The German troops that successfully held Metz were awarded the "Metz" armband. The fall of 1944 saw the 3rd Army moving at a crawl as the German opposition (elements of Army Group G and 1st Army) executing an economy of force mission, with fragmented formations. This screen concealed the 6th SS Panzer Army that was rebuilding for the Ardennes offensive.

            IMHO, Patch was the most successful US general on the Western front, summer-fall 1944 was very successful and his 7th army was first to the Rhine. His troops faced the Vosges Mountain ranges, a formidable obstacle and had many more tactical victories than the 3rd Army, north of them.

            Patton's biggest successes on the Western Front was the exploitation in France and the quick and decisive leadership of the 3rd Army in response to the Ardennes attack.
            Last edited by Cult Icon; 14 Jun 20, 16:09.

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            • #21
              Honestly it would be easier to find bad generals than good ones. As someone else pointed out there are too many variables.
              We hunt the hunters

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              • #22
                Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post

                Armies are not long armies without logistics but logistical genius is often not as bureaucratic as people suppose.

                That bureaucracy is a necessary part of any large human endeavor is self evident. What isn't evident to most people is when the rules should be broken.

                Bureaucracies are not designed to be efficient they are designed for self preservation which can be seen as a kind of efficiency in the sense that predictability prevents chaos. Efficiency in war can be measured in how many of the enemy you destroy compared to your own loses which often requires imagination on the part of commanders to achieve.
                The wars like this, cannot be won only by imagination. Even more, it's can be a drawback. It's a question of ressources, number of troops and training level.
                There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Idiots

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                • #23

                  Originally posted by Massena View Post
                  Patton was the only American commander the Germans were scared of.

                  Originally posted by DingBat View Post

                  This is an oft repeated claim, yet it feels apocryphal. Who actually said this and when?
                  I would submit either Francis Ford Coppola or Edmund North the screen writers of the "Patton Movie". Or Ladislas Fargo the author of a book that the movie used for much of its source material.

                  I think 95 % of the American view of General Patton is based on this movie.
                  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
                  Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

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                  • #24
                    How about General Motors? Or General Mills Corporation.

                    https://www.military.com/veteran-job...ar-effort.html
                    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
                    Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

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                    • #25
                      With so many thousands of Generals on all sides in the war, 'best' is not a word I like. If the word is changed to 'greatest' the list becomes much shorter.
                      Top of that short list: B.L. Montgomery

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post

                        This is probably mythical and overly spread by the Patton movie and post war hero worship, see Yeide's Patton book and others. Yeide's book is from the perspective of the German commanders who fought Patton. The FMS are also available online, I have personally never seen evidence for this. .

                        The 3rd Army struggled in the fall of 1944, partly due to resource constraints and also failed operational planning to seize Fortress Metz and its environs. The German troops that successfully held Metz were awarded the "Metz" armband. The fall of 1944 saw the 3rd Army moving at a crawl as the German opposition (elements of Army Group G and 1st Army) executing an economy of force mission, with fragmented formations. This screen concealed the 6th SS Panzer Army that was rebuilding for the Ardennes offensive.

                        IMHO, Patch was the most successful US general on the Western front, summer-fall 1944 was very successful and his 7th army was first to the Rhine. His troops faced the Vosges Mountain ranges, a formidable obstacle and had many more tactical victories than the 3rd Army, north of them.

                        Patton's biggest successes on the Western Front was the exploitation in France and the quick and decisive leadership of the 3rd Army in response to the Ardennes attack.
                        The best biography, I think, on Patton is the one by Carlo d'Este-Patton: A Genius for War. He commanded 3d Army in France, Germany, and Austria. He commanded 7th Army in Sicily.
                        We are not now that strength which in old days
                        Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                        Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                        To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post
                          Originally posted by Massena View Post
                          Patton was the only American commander the Germans were scared of.



                          I would submit either Francis Ford Coppola or Edmund North the screen writers of the "Patton Movie". Or Ladislas Fargo the author of a book that the movie used for much of its source material.

                          I think 95 % of the American view of General Patton is based on this movie.
                          That may be true. But reading the biographies is much, much better and gives an overall picture of the general.
                          We are not now that strength which in old days
                          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I do believe the idea that as far as German Generals were concerned, Patton was the one to watch in the Allied line up.

                            As proof of this, I submit Patton's role in "Operation "Bodyguard", and particularly his role in "Fortitude South I" and "Fortitude South II"

                            A source for the accuracy of this belief held by the Germans comes from Anthony Beevor, but he cannot be the only source.

                            For Fortitude South One, Patton's role was to keep German eyes firmly fixed on an initial landing across the straits at the Pas De Calais. The whole operation was the fine result of an idea coming from Montgomery's intel chief, the American David Strangeways.

                            Strangeways actually rewrote the entire deception plan, but always had the emphasis on using Georgie Patton as the 'matador", who would get himself photographed as much as possible in the role of the fictional commander of the equally fictional FUSAG, "First US Army Group", whose job it was to deliver the initial invasion at Calais.

                            Strangeways went further than that, even, with the implementation of "Fortitude South Two", which dropped signals intelligence into German hands that seemed to state outright that FUSAG had been broken up to reinforce Normandy, and the remenant, still under Patton, were to be built up as SUSAG (Second US Army Group) and launched as the "real" invasion, with every indication given that Normandy and "Overlord" was a secondary landing to Patton's "Big Event".

                            All of this was only possible for two reasons....

                            !/ That Georgie Patton really WAS "that commander that the Germans most watched and feared"...and...
                            2/ Due to the very success of ULTRA when it came to reading German diplomatic traffic, which was the primary source of exactly what was on the minds of German planners, but not the only source. But, diplomatic readings were a very good physical indicator of German intentions, particularly what used to transpire between Berlin and Tokyo.

                            THEREFORE....

                            My submission to all of you is that, based on the above, when your enemy tells you exactly who they were most scared of, I submit that George S. Patton Jr was the best General of World War Two.

                            Patton was far and away more effective than any British general, and further, every man under his command was not only fully aware of exactly who their commander was, but openly PROUD of service under Patton.

                            Patton had no need of the incredible butchery of Soviet generals, nor of their battlefield conduct by deploying anything resembling "blocking units".
                            Patton also lacked the innate caution of Montgomery, but had the sophisticated understanding of logistics that Alexander had, and the 'dash' of Brian Horrox.


                            There is another aspect to Patton that I did read in Carlo de-Este's (Genius For War", and I use it now because its so unbelievable, that it simply defies logic....

                            in 1919, before Versailles was signed off and before Patton went home, the ever rich Georgie took a remarkable motor "tour" of a certain section of France.
                            The purpose of thee tour was so that Georgie could "familiarize" himself with not only the road network, but the very "lay" of the land, and the whole area in terms of military operational suitabi;lity.

                            That area was, believe it or not....NORMANDY.

                            Patton himself stated that Normandy was going to be where the allies would need to land "when France was occupied".

                            For Patton to be doing this in 1919, on the end of "The War to End All Wars", with no knowledge of Hitler or any of his followers, with France still calling the shots in the Alliance command structure...

                            the prescience of the man is astounding.

                            It almost qualifies Patton as the best of all time. Patton himself used to say that he'd been a soldier 'many times before"...

                            Perhaps he had.
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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                              Anyone mention Yamashita yet?

                              Pruitt
                              Yep-see posting Number 7.
                              We are not now that strength which in old days
                              Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                              Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                              To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                It's interesting that, recently, Antony Beevor (and others) has put forth the hypothesis that Montgomery may have suffered from Asperger's syndrome.

                                In another note, Patton suffered from dyslexia.

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