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% of Luftwaffe losses against the Western allies, versus % losses against the USSR?

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  • % of Luftwaffe losses against the Western allies, versus % losses against the USSR?

    It is often brought up that the majority of German Army casualties were against the Soviets.

    What about the Luftwaffe? How did there losses against the West compare to their losses against the USSR?
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
    Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

  • #2
    Don Caldwell has debunked the claim from the East German Historian Groehler that most LW losses happened in the east .
    See : Luftwaffe losses by theatre September 1943-October 1944,with as conclusion :
    aircraft losses in the east : 8600
    aircraft losses in the west : 27060

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ljadw View Post
      Don Caldwell has debunked the claim from the East German Historian Groehler that most LW losses happened in the east .
      See : Luftwaffe losses by theatre September 1943-October 1944,with as conclusion :
      aircraft losses in the east : 8600
      aircraft losses in the west : 27060
      Understable - that's the period of the massive air raids over Germany.

      And before '43 ?

      Lambert of Montaigu - Crusader.

      Bolgios - Mercenary Game.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

        Understable - that's the period of the massive air raids over Germany.

        And before '43 ?
        Complete air dominance by Germany in China when they deployed the Flying Tigers.
        Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

        Prayers.

        BoRG

        http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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        • #5
          Askey gives in page 286 of his volume IIB a LW loss in the east in 1941 of 3800 aircraft ( destroyed/written-of as too heavily damaged ),combat and non combat losses .
          Other authors will give naturally other figures .
          For those who have a lot of time : Laurent Rizotti gives on 12 O'Clock High gives a ''useful website for LW losses in the east day by day '' starting on August 1941 in Russian ( but translation is possible )
          Other figures
          Poland : 285 losses
          Norway and Denmark :260
          France : 1428
          Battle of Britain ( but without the Blitz ) : 1887
          Crete : 370 (destroyed and damaged )
          But the big problem remains insoluble : what about the non operational losses of the training units and the units stationed in Germany : where do you write them : west or east ?
          Besides : there are only very few informations about these losses .
          And, sometimes losses include damaged aircraft, and in other cases only destroyed aircraft,and in certain cases : destroyed aircraft + a part of the damaged aircraft .
          In The Blitzkrieg Legend, Frieser gives LW losses during Fall Gelb/Fall Rot as 1236 destroyed and 323 damaged ,but without indicating how many of the damaged aircraft were written-of

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

            Understable - that's the period of the massive air raids over Germany.

            And before '43 ?

            Dan Zamansky has a good study that you can find online in pdf about relative losses East-West before 1944.
            His figures for German operational losses 22/6/41-01/01/1944 are:

            Eastern Front: 8,619 aircraft (48%)
            Mediterranean: 5,278 (29%)
            Western Front: 4,210 (23%)

            For single engine fighters the proportions are 39% East, 27% Med., 34% West.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
              And before '43 ?
              Before the end of 1942 the Eastern Front was the main Luftwaffe's front and most losses were suffered there. For instance, in the first 8 months of 1942 LW lost 4561 airplanes irrevocable and 3740 damaged, of them 2459 and 2201 in the East. Operation Torch in November 1942 was the turning point.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
                Before the end of 1942 the Eastern Front was the main Luftwaffe's front and most losses were suffered there. For instance, in the first 8 months of 1942 LW lost 4561 airplanes irrevocable and 3740 damaged, of them 2459 and 2201 in the East. Operation Torch in November 1942 was the turning point.
                This is without the LW losses BEFORE Barbarossa
                From the German Wiki : LW losses by year ( destroyed and written-of )
                1939 : 1126
                1940 :6816
                1941 :7271
                1942 : 7314
                1943 :17495
                At the end of 1941 the distribution was
                East :4400
                West ( = everything else ) :10800

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                • #9
                  How does this compare with bombers/fighters?
                  Wisdom is personal

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                  • #10
                    the portion of bombers was much higher in the East , somebody dig up the stats and source
                    Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                    Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                    Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                    Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                      the portion of bombers was much higher in the East , somebody dig up the stats and source
                      Where most of them tactical bombers such as the JU87?
                      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
                      Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

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                      • #12
                        Here are a variety of of charts & tables from assorted sources. Some have the source material identified, some not. Ultimately all are one or another interpretation of Luftwaffe records. Some differentiate between combat and operating losses. Under some conditions in the East & the Mediterranean the operating losses came close to rivaling the combat loss.

                        The main take away lessons are: 1. from the start of 1943 the bulk of the LW was facing the W Allies in the MTO/ETO. 2. The bulk of the losses were in the west, with the MTO being as a important killing ground as NW Europe. Bu some estimates here as high as 68% of total 1943 losses were in the west.

                        Unfortunately I've not found any handy charts for the Allies. Those might give some useful context for the German losses.

                        image_84253.png

                        LW Allocation Dec 43.png



                        LW Loss 43 II.jpg





                        Avg Ger air strength:losses 43-44.png

                        German Fighter Losses 1943.png
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 10 May 20, 20:22.

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                        • #13
                          Here are a few more charts showing a larger time span than 1943. Mostly this reinforces the implications in the six previous charts & shows how the air battle shifted away from the east.

                          German aicraft destroyed:damaged.png

                          Avg Ger air strength:losses 43-44.png

                          & Proving me wrong here is a chart showing the numbers for the German fighter defense in NW Europe vs the US AAF 8th &9th AFs. Not a clear picture since the RAF strength is not show, or the relative strengths in the MTO & East
                          OB rate of Growth copy.jpg

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                          • #14
                            Would the loss of German aircraft in the bombings around Ploiești be assigned to the Med or the West?
                            "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Beatrice Evelyn Hall
                            Updated for the 21st century... except if you are criticizing islam, that scares the $hii+e out of me!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Karri View Post
                              How does this compare with bombers/fighters?
                              Why only bombers/fighters ?There were also losses of transport aircraft, of rec aircraft, of training aircraft .
                              Almost half of aircraft losses were non combat losses .
                              Hube, Dietl, Reichenau, Mölders,Schobert,.. died in air accidents .
                              NCL were
                              1941 : first semester : 44,5%, second semester :39,5 %
                              1942 : 45 % and 40,5 %
                              1943 :45 % and 44,6%
                              1944 :37,2 %
                              NCL were the first cause of aircraft losses .Germany lost 76875 aircraft in WWII
                              Fighters 31673
                              Trainers 15428
                              Bombers 12037
                              Reconnaissance 6733
                              Transport 6141
                              Ground-attack 5548
                              Source Ellis :WWII A statistical survey P 258
                              About the LW in the East(Source : The Fall of the LW Hooton P171 )
                              Total Strength (without seaplanes and transports )
                              March 30 1942 :1766 of which 621 bombers
                              March 31 1943 : 1993 of which 475 bombers
                              March 31 1944 :1785 of which 163 bombers
                              And since December 30 1942 there were more fighters than bombers in the east .

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