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The WWII recedes the more it seems to define the present & shape the future?.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by walle View Post



    As for the Poles rewriting their history I would say that they are not alone.
    No, every nation has engaged in it to a certain degree.....but to the extent that the Poles are doing so at this moment, and with encouragement from the current government no less, I'd say the Poles are very unique in this regard.

    You'll live, only the best get killed.

    -General Charles de Gaulle

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    • #17
      EU as a whole is doing that.
      There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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      • #18
        Originally posted by asterix View Post





        I suggest you both read the Wiesenthal Files by Alan Levy. Poland in currently in the process of rewriting it's history to almost mythic proportions in regards to the events of the 1930s-40s. No, Poland did not create the Holocaust, nor did they conceive it at the Wansee Conference...but many individuals and groups of Poles took advantage of it. In other words......they behaved much like all other nations occupied by the Germans at the time. Sad to see they can't even admit to this much. However, reading Levy's work on Wiesenthal's research, the Poles are not entirely innocent as they would portray themselves to be.

        The irony here is that while other nations have come around to admit complicity in the Nazi genocides...Poland is going the other way to effectively erase any mention of it......and certain peoples in the West are eating it up. Case and point - the myth of "Betrayal of Poland". The Poles have very conveniently left out the fact they were instrumental in forcing the UKs and France's hands with the Munich Agreement so she could seize a part of Czechoslovakia for herself.
        There were literally millions of people who collaborated with the Nazis in all of the occupied territories.

        They helped dig the pits and round up Jews and other undesirables or enemies of the state and herded them to the pits during the "Holocaust by Bullets". Later, when the Nazis built the 3 "liquidation camps" they assisted directing victims into the gas chambers. Later, when a liquidation section was built at Auschwitz they also did this. They were called the Sonderkommando. Many of the Sonderkommando were Jewish.

        They also took advantage outside the camps, in all the occupied territories, of situations where they could hunt down and turn in or locate Jews in hiding for a reward. As little as a few loafs of bred up to large sums of money or a percentage of the Jews valuable belongings were exchanged by the Nazis with the collaborators.

        The fact of the matter is that, without the Nazis leadership, planning, and organization system to carry out Hitler's plan to rid Europe of unworthy races these people would never have had the chance to do any of the above. Yes they are guilty as collaborators if that is what you are referring to.

        I was not aware that present day Poland is in denial about collaboration with the Nazis. This I can agree with you is wrong.

        If that is not what you are referring to please list a book or books with a credible source that the Polish government was involved in the planning, organizing, construction of the liquidation camps, locating and identifying, and logistics (railways to carry the "cargo").

        There is a difference between collaborators and the governmental body in charge which create the conditions in which collaboration is possible.
        Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

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        • #19
          Originally posted by asterix View Post





          I suggest you both read the Wiesenthal Files by Alan Levy. Poland in currently in the process of rewriting it's history to almost mythic proportions in regards to the events of the 1930s-40s. No, Poland did not create the Holocaust, nor did they conceive it at the Wansee Conference...but many individuals and groups of Poles took advantage of it. In other words......they behaved much like all other nations occupied by the Germans at the time. Sad to see they can't even admit to this much. However, reading Levy's work on Wiesenthal's research, the Poles are not entirely innocent as they would portray themselves to be.

          The irony here is that while other nations have come around to admit complicity in the Nazi genocides...Poland is going the other way to effectively erase any mention of it......and certain peoples in the West are eating it up. Case and point - the myth of "Betrayal of Poland". The Poles have very conveniently left out the fact they were instrumental in forcing the UKs and France's hands with the Munich Agreement so she could seize a part of Czechoslovakia for herself.
          Jedwabne comes to mind.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom

          Baltic states use to deny participation of their nationals in such activities as well.
          "Keep Calm. Use Less X's"

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          • #20
            https://www.rt.com/news/469852-latvi...eterans-pride/
            There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post

              There were literally millions of people who collaborated with the Nazis in all of the occupied territories.

              They helped dig the pits and round up Jews and other undesirables or enemies of the state and herded them to the pits during the "Holocaust by Bullets". Later, when the Nazis built the 3 "liquidation camps" they assisted directing victims into the gas chambers. Later, when a liquidation section was built at Auschwitz they also did this. They were called the Sonderkommando. Many of the Sonderkommando were Jewish.

              They also took advantage outside the camps, in all the occupied territories, of situations where they could hunt down and turn in or locate Jews in hiding for a reward. As little as a few loafs of bred up to large sums of money or a percentage of the Jews valuable belongings were exchanged by the Nazis with the collaborators.

              The fact of the matter is that, without the Nazis leadership, planning, and organization system to carry out Hitler's plan to rid Europe of unworthy races these people would never have had the chance to do any of the above. Yes they are guilty as collaborators if that is what you are referring to.

              I was not aware that present day Poland is in denial about collaboration with the Nazis. This I can agree with you is wrong.

              If that is not what you are referring to please list a book or books with a credible source that the Polish government was involved in the planning, organizing, construction of the liquidation camps, locating and identifying, and logistics (railways to carry the "cargo").

              There is a difference between collaborators and the governmental body in charge which create the conditions in which collaboration is possible.
              Without the aid of any books, I can assure you there were countless numbers of French people who were not in the least bit happy to see their 'rescuers' on that renown date in 1944!! lcm1
              'By Horse by Tram'.


              I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
              " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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              • #22
                Dead's, dead, innit?
                Whether it's from a murdering nazi bastard in Oradour or a stray rocket from a Tiffie.

                The long toll of the brave
                Is not lost in darkness
                Over the fruitful earth
                And athwart the seas
                Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                Unquenchable forever.

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                • #23
                  Amazing ! President Trump must be reading this Forum on occasion and probably this thread in particular.

                  He just told people that the Kurds did not help the US during the Second World War, citing Normandy as an example "it's not as if they "helped us with Normandy" so he feels okay leaving them to their fate

                  Okay , okay it's just Trump and he says anything about anything but you know what I mean?

                  Politicians can use WWII references for the most bizarre analogies and they know, that no matter how absurd their comparison, some people will just lap it up.

                  Crazy stuff.

                  Regards
                  lodestar

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                  • #24
                    People have forgotten the real cause of WW2.

                    The current rise in Nationalism proves that History is the most important subject on any education agenda.
                    How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                    Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                      People have forgotten the real cause of WW2.

                      The current rise in Nationalism proves that History is the most important subject on any education agenda.
                      Absolutely.

                      But what history should be on the agenda?
                      the progressives?
                      the determinists?
                      the great man or woman theorists?
                      Big picture advocates?
                      pro-Western world view?
                      the 'West' as villian (the black 'armband' view of Europe and North America)?

                      or .....
                      of course....The Nationalists themselves?

                      Very tricky stuff.
                      Loved the whole issue forty five years ago... still fascinating.

                      Regards
                      lodestar





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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by lodestar View Post

                        Absolutely.

                        But what history should be on the agenda?
                        the progressives?
                        the determinists?
                        the great man or woman theorists?
                        Big picture advocates?
                        pro-Western world view?
                        the 'West' as villian (the black 'armband' view of Europe and North America)?

                        or .....
                        of course....The Nationalists themselves?

                        Very tricky stuff.
                        Loved the whole issue forty five years ago... still fascinating.

                        Regards
                        lodestar




                        Perhaps the requirements should be that a History professor should be able to address all the perspectives using critical judgment in discerning the differences and its relativity to one's personal perspective/values/view on the basic nature of man. Might end up with people being able to talk to one another with shared understanding.
                        Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                          People have forgotten the real cause of WW2.

                          The current rise in Nationalism proves that History is the most important subject on any education agenda.
                          I don't see that as the primary cause at all.

                          In Germany's case I'd say the major driving cause was the onerous and economically devastating terms of surrender forced on Germany under the Versailles Treaty. Germany was hardly the cause of WW 1 but was held responsible and libel for the entirety of it as if they were. Getting even with your tormentors is a powerful driving motivation.

                          In Japan's case, it was largely driven by culture not nationalism. The IJA simply could not bring itself to compromise in China with any of the factions opposing it. Total victory was the only way to end the conflict. It would always be just one more push and we'll win... It's why the IJA having gotten control of the government didn't-- couldn't-- back down in the face of increasing US pressure to do just that. The only victory the IJA could accept was one on their terms.

                          In the early years up to 1940, the Soviet Union was driven more by creating a buffer zone around them than anything.

                          If there was one nation that really was driven by Nationalism, it was probably Italy. Mussolini wanted to recreate the greatness of the Roman empire for Italy, thus his push to colonize and nationalize much of the Mediterranean basin.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                            I don't see that as the primary cause at all.

                            In Germany's case I'd say the major driving cause was the onerous and economically devastating terms of surrender forced on Germany under the Versailles Treaty. Germany was hardly the cause of WW 1 but was held responsible and libel for the entirety of it as if they were. Getting even with your tormentors is a powerful driving motivation.

                            In Japan's case, it was largely driven by culture not nationalism. The IJA simply could not bring itself to compromise in China with any of the factions opposing it. Total victory was the only way to end the conflict. It would always be just one more push and we'll win... It's why the IJA having gotten control of the government didn't-- couldn't-- back down in the face of increasing US pressure to do just that. The only victory the IJA could accept was one on their terms.

                            In the early years up to 1940, the Soviet Union was driven more by creating a buffer zone around them than anything.

                            If there was one nation that really was driven by Nationalism, it was probably Italy. Mussolini wanted to recreate the greatness of the Roman empire for Italy, thus his push to colonize and nationalize much of the Mediterranean basin.
                            Of course you are entitled to your POV. However.........

                            Germany had a nationalism since its (re)birth under Bismarcks unification in 1871. WW1 is too late to consider as the start of WW2.

                            Japans nationalism was based the fact they considered themselves a superior race. This continues today in some form in every country, and appears to be growing once more.

                            However, agree with your comments on the USSR and Italy.
                            How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                            Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by walle View Post

                              Given the fact that the Poles were given all of Eastern Germany after the war (apart from Königsberg) after 14 million Germans had been ethnically cleansed from their eastern lands, renders any Polish demands of "compensation" not only laughable, but absolutely null and void.

                              If anything the Poles should be paying the Germans compensation for the theft of those lands.

                              As for the Poles rewriting their history I would say that they are not alone.

                              At the end of the day it all comes down to controlling peoples minds and the perception they have of themselves as nations, and, only ONE side has had that "market" pretty much cornered for close to 80 years now. It has been very one-sided.
                              'historically, the land east of the elbe river was SLAVIC.https://crusaderhistory.wordpress.co...usades/page/2/
                              Last edited by marktwain; 11 Oct 19, 14:45.
                              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                                I don't see that as the primary cause at all.

                                In Germany's case I'd say the major driving cause was the onerous and economically devastating terms of surrender forced on Germany under the Versailles Treaty. Germany was hardly the cause of WW 1 but was held responsible and libel for the entirety of it as if they were. Getting even with your tormentors is a powerful driving motivation.

                                In Japan's case, it was largely driven by culture not nationalism. The IJA simply could not bring itself to compromise in China with any of the factions opposing it. Total victory was the only way to end the conflict. It would always be just one more push and we'll win... It's why the IJA having gotten control of the government didn't-- couldn't-- back down in the face of increasing US pressure to do just that. The only victory the IJA could accept was one on their terms.

                                In the early years up to 1940, the Soviet Union was driven more by creating a buffer zone around them than anything.

                                If there was one nation that really was driven by Nationalism, it was probably Italy. Mussolini wanted to recreate the greatness of the Roman empire for Italy, thus his push to colonize and nationalize much of the Mediterranean basin.
                                In the event there was little onerous about the Versailles Treaty. The amount actually paid in reparations was less than Germany imposed upon France after the Franco-Prussian War. THey certainly did not come close to compensating Belgium and France for the damage done. Germany ,territorially, remained intact- arguably in a better strategic position than in 1914.

                                There is a very good case to support an argument than Germany was responsible for WW1. Had not the Kaiser issüed the famous "Blank Cheque (Check)" to Austria-Hungary then the latter would not have gone to war.
                                "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                                Samuel Johnson.

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