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  • The WWII recedes the more it seems to define the present & shape the future?.

    The further WWII recedes into the past the more it seems to be defining the present and it, appears, shaping the future.

    Seriously re-working an old 1970’s tutorial thematic for possible use in future discussions.
    I mean face to-face ones (remember them?) Lot harder than this online stuff.
    Anyone can mouth off and be provocative on ‘the Net’, whole different ball game in a university setting with people who may know their stuffHowever .

    I’m continually amazed at how many old issues can be simply re-worked, fine-tuned slightly, modernised if need be and then re-represented.
    Helps if you’re lodestar of course.

    This one is case in point.
    Back forty five years ago you could simply for example, refer to how many politicians used the supposed consequences of pre- WWII appeasement to argue against compromise or for intervention in certain parts of the world.

    Nowdays you can for example refer to how many politicians use the supposed consequences of pre- WWII appeasement to argue against compromise or for intervention in certain parts of the world.

    The more things change hey?
    The whole issue was raised again on an Australian Radio National Correspondence Report programme which observed the following in 2015:

    “North Asia has just finished its round of 70th anniversaries of the end of World War II, culminating in a massive military parade in Beijing last Thursday.
    China, South Korea and Japan have all used the events to push their own and very different versions of history and agendas.

    The great irony is that, 70 years on, the further World War II recedes into the past, the more it seems to be defining the present - and, it appears, shaping the future.”

    Also :
    “Recently the Polish government signed a law banning people from accusing Poland of Holocaust atrocities committed by the Nazis and from referring to concentration camps as "Polish death camps" -- heightening tensions with the United States and Israel, which have criticized the measure.

    The developments in Poland come at the intersection of two troubling trends taking place in many countries -- the upsurge in Holocaust denialism and the political manipulation of the truth for political purposes.”

    This development is both very interesting and to some very troubling.
    Good point.
    The way many in the general public view the war is still characterised by popular misconceptions, myths and plain falsehoods.
    Another example of this new wave of modern 'populism' how I hate it so.

    So, what do posters think about this whole approach as a possible tutorial sub-theme fitting under the umbrella topic of: The War - Consequences, effects and significance to the world we live in?

    Gonna leave tutorial participants a babbling mass of quivering gelatinous by-product if I have my way.
    (lodestar reliving his ‘70’s glory days as though 40 years had never happened)


    Regards
    lodestar

  • #2
    Well, since the rest of us are mere mortals and not "The Great Lodestar Himself", why bother?
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      Well, since the rest of us are mere mortals and not "The Great Lodestar Himself", why bother?
      Errr…………. don't know how to tell ya MM but the
      'Divine lodestar'
      the 'Great and Magnificent lodestar'
      'the rest of you are mere mortals'
      'lodestar is not God but then again God is not lodestar and thus the universe balances itself'

      are just bits of tongue in cheek, laughable and harmless affectation and drivel.

      Totally ignore my fluff mate, it can't hurt you.

      You're pretty sharp and I know you have strong opinions on many aspects of history and politics. Give me some ideas I can use dude.

      I want those precious, self-important, entitled little generation Xer's, Baby Boomers, Millennials and Ostrogoths to be quaking and cryin'

      Regards
      lodestar


      Comment


      • #4
        I don't understand how Poland not wishing to be blamed for crimes committed by Germans - crimes of which they were major victims themselves - amounts to Holocaust denial. Another example of this new wave of modern 'political correctness' how I hate it so...
        Another aspect here has to do with practical political and economic aims. It seems that Poland wants to get more $$ from Germany, pushing for compensations for WW2 wrongs. Of course, if you dig deep enough, you will find that no nation is completely innocent from crimes and atrocities, including the Poles. However, I don't see how anybody could accuse Poland of being co-responsible for the Holocaust.

        Comment


        • #5
          Poland being held responsible in any way for the holocaust is laughable. Poland was defeated and occupied by the Germans and Russians. Then, by 1 July 1941, by Germany alone. Action Reinhard was then started and you had the 3 camps at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka in which there was very little forced labor - the 3 camps were 100% liquidation camps. These 3 camps were constructed and fully operational by the Spring of 1942.

          There were some Polish capos at the camps but they were very low on the command chain. All 3 camps were under the overall command of Odilo Globocnik, an Austrian born member of the Nazi party and each camp had a Nazi commander. The most notable of theses commanders was Franz Stangl who was in charge of Sobibor from April to August 1942 then transferred to Treblinka to where he remained the komandant from September 1942 until August 1943.

          I am more familiar with Treblinka having read a couple of books about it. The pecking order there was SS commander and SS men, followed by Ukranians, then a few Polish capos at most, then some Jewish and other nationalities that were selected upon arrival because of certain skills they had such as goldsmiths or tailors for example.
          Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by lodestar View Post
            The further WWII recedes into the past the more it seems to be defining the present and it, appears, shaping the future.

            Seriously re-working an old 1970’s tutorial thematic for possible use in future discussions.
            I mean face to-face ones (remember them?) Lot harder than this online stuff.

            Anyone can mouth off and be provocative on ‘the Net’, whole different ball game in a university setting with people who may know their stuffHowever .

            I’m continually amazed at how many old issues can be simply re-worked, fine-tuned slightly, modernised if need be and then re-represented.
            Helps if you’re lodestar of course.


            Regards
            lodestar
            Mr Lodestar, have you considered throwing out your 1970's bedding,- and just replacing that ol' |thermatic with a modern electric blanket?
            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

            Comment


            • #7
              Populism is democracy.

              While it is true that only a fool or a socialist/Marxist favors democracy over a republic we have a whole new crop of fools that favor the technocratic or bureaucratic state as represented by the EU. The Irony is that 70 years ago we fought to defeat authoritarian national socialism only to see it replaced by authoritarian, globalist socialism and it's enabler corporatism. Freedom it seems is just too scary for those unaccustomed to taking responsibility.

              The western world is experiencing the longest period of relative peace since the end of the Roman Republic. This period of peace and prosperity was ushered in by the "populous" reign of Augustus. When the bureaucrats once again gained ascendancy the Empire started to crumble and dark ages soon followed. The take away should be that "elites" are unable to govern themselves or nations anymore than direct democracies such as seen in Athens are viable. As to the elites who call themselves historians mentioned in the original post there is a difference between knowing history and understanding it. Certainly no rational person would suggest that the dictatorship of Augustus is a model we want to follow. Nor would any rational person wish for a slave economy such as Rome's. The point only addresses the repeated failure of bureaucratic states ran by elites to bring peace and prosperity.

              Someone is sure to suggest that the above is off topic. The argument against that is that nothing began or ended with WWII. WWII was a continuation of WWI which itself was a continuation of events set in motion by previous conflicts and national ambitions. To some extent the nations themselves were a product of the Roman Empire. Napoleon a precursor to Hitler. The genocidal nature of the Nazis predicted by other socialists such as the founder of planned parenthood Margaret Sanger. The brutality of Stalin by the brutality of the French Revolution's commune.

              In the current day we see that the perfect is the enemy of the good. 70 years of relative peace and prosperity has predictably ushered in negative social epistatis. We are living in the human equivalent of the mouse utopia. Ending institutional racism was not good enough we now need to attack the phantom of unconscious bias. Ending sex discrimination wasn't good enough we now need to artificially "empower" women and suppress masculinity. Ending colonialism wasn't good enough we now need to decolonize minds through the anti intellectual doctrines of multiculturalism, The "mutants" among us want to break down the boarders between all things creating the chaotic and dysfunctional soup of equity, diversity, and inclusion. When Alexandria Cortez's advisor quipped that the green new deal was not about environmentalism but the destruction of the existing economic order ushering in chaos he was only starting that which was obvious to anyone not a pearl clutching automaton.

              Ordinarily it is desirable to address the topic of the OP and not the state of mind of the poster. In this case it is impossible because the poster tries to hide his authoritarian bent behind a mask of comedy. He may suggest that his grandiosity is comic relief but it reflects an elitist tendency. He openly expressed his contempt for the populous so one can only assume a distaste for representative government. As it turns out faith in the bureaucratic state is just another form of utopianism and is unavoidably elitist. I have in my above ramblings tried to establish through historical reference why such a faith is naive.

              When democratic socialists promote direct democracy they are promoting a different form of dictatorship and only do so under the assumption that their beliefs will be dictated. When popular elections do not go their way they are the first to attempt a soft coup such as we see with Brexit and Trump. Any feigned resentment of the establishment elite is only a temporary condition until they can establish themselves as the ruling elites. That is the real history of socialism including the Nazi variety addressed in the OP.

              ​​​​​​








              We hunt the hunters

              Comment


              • #8
                Some of the lasting things that came out of WW 2.

                A massive leap forward in technology. The list of stuff that got kick started and became producible is absolutely huge.

                The world was made much smaller. This is due largely to the US building bases around the planet. When the war ended, these bases, airfields, harbors, and what-have-you reverted to local use. They were often such that they'd never have been built if there hadn't been a war. For example, Micronesia was connected by a series of airports and improved anchorages in lagoons that only exist because of the Pacific War.
                Interestingly, the one nation that could have benefited far more from this sort of thing that didn't was the Soviet Union. They pretty much eschewed Western help in infrastructure improvement.

                The war crimes trials. This has morphed into the idiot idea that war is more an extension of law enforcement and policing that a clash of ideologies, politics, or economics. Anything and everything is becoming a "war crime" in military conflict. Collateral damage? War crime. Excessive use of force? War crime. Rough interrogation of prisoners? War crime. It's become so bad today that the whole idea of war crimes has become diminished to a point of ridiculousness.

                The Cold War and the rise of Communism and Socialism. While these existed prior to WW 2, the outcome gave them a big boost that led to another four decades of low intensity conflict.

                The fear of anything and everything "nuclear." More than anything else, the use of atomic weapons at the end of WW 2 bred a public fear of all things nuclear. The secrecy behind much of the field of nuclear science because of military usage didn't help.



                Comment


                • #9
                  [QUOTE=wolfhnd;n5143543]Populism is democracy.

                  While it is true that only a fool or a socialist/Marxist favors democracy over a republic we have a whole new crop of fools that favor the technocratic or bureaucratic state as represented by the EU. The Irony is that 70 years ago we fought to defeat authoritarian national socialism only to see it replaced by authoritarian, globalist socialism and it's enabler corporatism. Freedom it seems is just too scary for those unaccustomed to taking responsibility.

                  The western world is experiencing the longest period of relative peace since the end of the Roman Republic. This period of peace and prosperity was ushered in by the "populous" reign of Augustus. When the bureaucrats once again gained ascendancy the Empire started to crumble and dark ages soon followed. The take away should be that "elites" are unable to govern themselves or nations anymore than direct democracies such as seen in Athens are viable. As to the elites who call themselves historians mentioned in the original post there is a difference between knowing history and understanding it. Certainly no rational person would suggest that the dictatorship of Augustus is a model we want to follow. Nor would any rational person wish for a slave economy such as Rome's. The point only addresses the repeated failure of bureaucratic states ran by elites to bring peace and prosperity.

                  Someone is sure to suggest that the above is off topic. The argument against that is that nothing began or ended with WWII. WWII was a continuation of WWI which itself was a continuation of events set in motion by previous conflicts and national ambitions. To some extent the nations themselves were a product of the Roman Empire. Napoleon a precursor to Hitler. The genocidal nature of the Nazis predicted by other socialists such as the founder of planned parenthood Margaret Sanger. The brutality of Stalin by the brutality of the French Revolution's commune.

                  In the current day we see that the perfect is the enemy of the good. 70 years of relative peace and prosperity has predictably ushered in negative social epistatis. We are living in the human equivalent of the mouse utopia. Ending institutional racism was not good enough we now need to attack the phantom of unconscious bias. Ending sex discrimination wasn't good enough we now need to artificially "empower" women and suppress masculinity. Ending colonialism wasn't good enough we now need to decolonize minds through the anti intellectual doctrines of multiculturalism, The "mutants" among us want to break down the boarders between all things creating the chaotic and dysfunctional soup of equity, diversity, and inclusion. When Alexandria Cortez's advisor quipped that the green new deal was not about environmentalism but the destruction of the existing economic order ushering in chaos he was only starting that which was obvious to anyone not a pearl clutching automaton.

                  Ordinarily it is desirable to address the topic of the OP and not the state of mind of the poster. In this case it is impossible because the poster tries to hide his authoritarian bent behind a mask of comedy. He may suggest that his grandiosity is comic relief but it reflects an elitist tendency. He openly expressed his contempt for the populous so one can only assume a distaste for representative government. As it turns out faith in the bureaucratic state is just another form of utopianism and is unavoidably elitist. I have in my above ramblings tried to establish through historical reference why such a faith is naive.

                  When democratic socialists promote direct democracy they are promoting a different form of dictatorship and only do so under the assumption that their beliefs will be dictated. When popular elections do not go their way they are the first to attempt a soft coup such as we see with Brexit and Trump. Any feigned resentment of the establishment elite is only a temporary condition until they can establish themselves as the ruling elites. That is the real history of socialism including the Nazi variety addressed in the OP.
                  ​​​​​​


                  Very interesting post. Since Trump took office and the Dems began their witch hunting I have heard a lot of this type of talk going around. I purchased the following book a few weeks ago and plan on reading it soon. It is just one book on this subject and there are a few more including newer ones but I will start with this:

                  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

                  Here is the latest book which I may read after I read the above book:

                  https://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Reich-...MAAREVS3A3HXYM





                  Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    wolfhnd's post and my follow up quoting him may seem off topic but I'm not so sure anymore.

                    Here is the Ominous Amazon blurbs from the 2 book links I posted above:
                    Throw out everything you think you know about history. Close the approved textbooks, turn off the corporate mass media, and whatever you do, don't believe anything you hear from the government—The Rise of the Fourth Reich reveals the truth about American power. In this explosive new book, the legendary Jim Marrs, author of the underground bestseller Rule by Secrecy, reveals the frighteningly real possibility that today the United States is becoming the Fourth Reich, the continuation of an ideology thought to have been vanquished more than a half century ago.

                    This concept may seem absurd to those who cannot see past the rose-colored spin, hype, and disinformation poured out daily by the media conglomerates—most of which are owned by the very same families and corporations who supported the Nazis before World War II. But as Marrs precisely explains, National Socialism never died, but rather its hideous philosophy is alive and active in modern America. Unfortunately, most people cannot understand the shadowy links between fascism and corporate power, the military, and our elected leaders.

                    While the United States helped defeat the Germans in World War II, we failed to defeat the Nazis. At the end of the war, ranking Nazis, along with their young and fanatical protégés, used the loot of Europe to create corporate front companies in many countries, including the United States of America. Utilizing their stolen wealth, men with Nazi backgrounds and mentalities wormed their way into corporate America, slowly buying up and consolidating companies into giant multinational conglomerates. Many thousands of other Nazis came to the United States under classified programs such as Project Paperclip. They brought with them miraculous weapon technology that helped win the space race but they also brought their insidious Nazi philosophy within our borders. This ideology based on the authoritarian premise that the end justifies the means—including unprovoked wars of aggression and curtailment of individual liberties—has gained an iron hold in the "land of the free and the home of the brave."

                    For the first time Jim Marrs has gathered compelling evidence that an effort has been underway for the past sixty years to bring a form of National Socialism to modern America, creating in essence a modern empire—or "Fourth Reich"!
                    And:

                    Ever since the collapse of the Third Reich, anxieties have persisted about Nazism's revival in the form of a Fourth Reich. Gavriel D. Rosenfeld reveals, for the first time, these postwar nightmares of a future that never happened and explains what they tell us about Western political, intellectual, and cultural life. He shows how postwar German history might have been very different without the fear of the Fourth Reich as a mobilizing idea to combat the right-wing forces that genuinely threatened the country's democratic order. He then explores the universalization of the Fourth Reich by left-wing radicals in the 1960s, its transformation into a source of pop culture entertainment in the 1970s, and its embrace by authoritarian populists and neo-Nazis seeking to attack the European Union since the year 2000. This is a timely analysis of a concept that is increasingly relevant in an era of surging right-wing politics.
                    Theo mir ist die munition ausgegangen ich werde diesen ramman auf wiedersehen uns in walhalla

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      [QUOTE=Kurt Knispel;n5143580]
                      Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                      Populism is democracy.

                      ​​​​​​


                      Very interesting post. Since Trump took office and the Dems began their witch hunting I have heard a lot of this type of talk going around. I purchased the following book a few weeks ago and plan on reading it soon. It is just one book on this subject and there are a few more including newer ones but I will start with this:

                      https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

                      Here is the latest book which I may read after I read the above book:

                      https://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Reich-...MAAREVS3A3HXYM
                      Nothing quite like conspiracy theory fiction...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Off to a very interesting start.

                        Gotta go and visit granddaughter and son and daughter-in-law but 'll be onto reples in a few days.
                        Thanks for the input.

                        Regards
                        lodestar

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In technology, some interesting scientific breakthroughs and knowledge was gained that may not seem obvious from WW 2:

                          Sonar technology improved to a point that we were able for the first time map the bottom of the oceans. This reinforced the theory of plate tectonics and led to advances in understanding volcanos and earthquakes.

                          High altitude aircraft flight led to a better understanding of the jet streams and how they effect weather.

                          The need for long range radio communications led to a better understanding of the troposphere and atmosphere in general.

                          Resources in some pretty inhospitable and remote locations were discovered. For example, the US Navy sent an expedition to Northern Alaska that discovered oil on the Arctic Ocean shelf.

                          http://www.navyhistory.org/2013/05/b...pedition-1944/

                          Pre-fabricated buildings and construction took a huge leap forward at the time.

                          Construction projects like the PLUTO pipeline are still in use in places today:



                          Plastics, food preservation, and minor things like this:



                          The foil lined paper bag was invented to keep parts on US Navy ships in usable conditions when stored in humid conditions aboard ship for long periods of time.

                          The lowly wooden pallet became a worldwide staple because of WW 2.

                          https://www.mcintoshbox.com/uncatego...ts-came-to-be/

                          It made moving goods easier and faster.



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
                            Poland being held responsible in any way for the holocaust is laughable.

                            Originally posted by Proconsul View Post
                            However, I don't see how anybody could accuse Poland of being co-responsible for the Holocaust.

                            I suggest you both read the Wiesenthal Files by Alan Levy. Poland in currently in the process of rewriting it's history to almost mythic proportions in regards to the events of the 1930s-40s. No, Poland did not create the Holocaust, nor did they conceive it at the Wansee Conference...but many individuals and groups of Poles took advantage of it. In other words......they behaved much like all other nations occupied by the Germans at the time. Sad to see they can't even admit to this much. However, reading Levy's work on Wiesenthal's research, the Poles are not entirely innocent as they would portray themselves to be.

                            The irony here is that while other nations have come around to admit complicity in the Nazi genocides...Poland is going the other way to effectively erase any mention of it......and certain peoples in the West are eating it up. Case and point - the myth of "Betrayal of Poland". The Poles have very conveniently left out the fact they were instrumental in forcing the UKs and France's hands with the Munich Agreement so she could seize a part of Czechoslovakia for herself.
                            You'll live, only the best get killed.

                            -General Charles de Gaulle

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Proconsul View Post
                              I don't understand how Poland not wishing to be blamed for crimes committed by Germans - crimes of which they were major victims themselves - amounts to Holocaust denial. Another example of this new wave of modern 'political correctness' how I hate it so...
                              Another aspect here has to do with practical political and economic aims. It seems that Poland wants to get more $$ from Germany, pushing for compensations for WW2 wrongs. Of course, if you dig deep enough, you will find that no nation is completely innocent from crimes and atrocities, including the Poles. However, I don't see how anybody could accuse Poland of being co-responsible for the Holocaust.
                              Given the fact that the Poles were given all of Eastern Germany after the war (apart from Königsberg) after 14 million Germans had been ethnically cleansed from their eastern lands, renders any Polish demands of "compensation" not only laughable, but absolutely null and void.

                              If anything the Poles should be paying the Germans compensation for the theft of those lands.

                              As for the Poles rewriting their history I would say that they are not alone.

                              At the end of the day it all comes down to controlling peoples minds and the perception they have of themselves as nations, and, only ONE side has had that "market" pretty much cornered for close to 80 years now. It has been very one-sided.

                              Comment

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