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    80 years ago today 1st September German troops invaded Poland and kicked the whole thing off. The German president today said Sorry wont happen again
    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

  • #2
    To be fair, her predecessor tried to tell everyone it was Poland's fault.
    Indyref2 - still, "Yes."

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    • #3
      Originally posted by the ace View Post
      To be fair, her predecessor tried to tell everyone it was Poland's fault.
      Her! President Frank-Walter Steinmeier is a he (or perhaps a Herr)
      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MarkV View Post

        Her! President Frank-Walter Steinmeier is a he (or perhaps a Herr)
        My apologies, I've got Mutti on the brain.
        Indyref2 - still, "Yes."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by the ace
          Poland's, "Crime," occurred in the aftermath of WW1, when the Poles took their country back
          The problem was that Polish ideas of what "their country" was exactly was conflicting with their neighbors. And considering how different ethnic groups were mingled in Eastern Europe it wasn't the most obvious issue.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
            The problem was that Polish ideas of what "their country" was exactly was conflicting with their neighbors. And considering how different ethnic groups were mingled in Eastern Europe it wasn't the most obvious issue.
            Why would it ? Three of those neighbours had literally wiped Poland from the map, and were now in no position to object. The Poles still lived where Poland used to be.
            Indyref2 - still, "Yes."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by the ace View Post

              Why would it ? Three of those neighbours had literally wiped Poland from the map, and were now in no position to object. The Poles still lived where Poland used to be.
              Not really the case. Stalin annexed much of Eastern Poland which contained many ethnic Poles and assigned extra territory in the West 'in compensation' and this contained many ethnic Germans and other non Poles. Poland's borders post war were different from pre war and in effect the country had been moved Westward.
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                The German president today said Sorry wont happen again
                I think he's probably asking forgiveness of the Trillion Euros the Poles are demanding for compensation!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by the ace View Post
                  Why would it ? Three of those neighbours had literally wiped Poland from the map, and were now in no position to object. The Poles still lived where Poland used to be.
                  (with a boring voice) not all people living in pre-1772 Poland were ethnic Poles. Many were not. Which raised a question immediately after Polish independence was proclaimed: where "just" borders of Poland should be drawn. Poles and their neighbors had quite conflicting opinions on that. Poles believed that Vilnius should belong to Poland, whereas Lithuanians said that it is Lithuanian. Ukrainians said that Lvov is Ukrainian, but Poles didn't agree. That was a part of a general problem of post-1918 border settlement.

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                  • #10
                    People seem to be forgetting that Poland did the west no favors in jumping on the Munich 1938 agreement in order to grab Upper Silesia using the same argument Hitler used to seize the Sudatenland. This was a fresh little piece of bait thrown out there by Ribbentrop to see if he could cause a little fracture in the French/British/Poland alliance and it worked. Poland's zeal to jump on the bandwagon for a piece of the pie was a silver-platter prize for Hitler. The mistake France and the UK made was continuing in believing that Poland was an ally worth going to war for.

                    IMO - France and the UK lost a real chance to tell the Poles to F off. Both countries knew they were lagging in both tech and output and had begun their transition very late, until after many knew a war could not be avoided. Bumping Poland off would bought both countries much needed time to catch up in these regards and while Hitler and Stalin wore each other down.

                    Instead, both FR and UK chose to honor their agreement (which Poland always overlooks in their narrative) and both nations went through 4-1/2 years of hell for honoring that agreement.
                    You'll live, only the best get killed.

                    -General Charles de Gaulle

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                    • #11
                      To all posting in this thread
                      A series of off topic posts were removed.
                      This is the World War Two forum. Stick to world war two and take the off topic modern history and racial theorizing to the Current Affairs forum. Further off topic posts will be removed.
                      Thank you
                      ACG Staff
                      Last edited by CarpeDiem; 02 Sep 19, 15:08.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by asterix View Post
                        People seem to be forgetting that Poland did the west no favors in jumping on the Munich 1938 agreement in order to grab Upper Silesia using the same argument Hitler used to seize the Sudatenland. This was a fresh little piece of bait thrown out there by Ribbentrop to see if he could cause a little fracture in the French/British/Poland alliance and it worked. Poland's zeal to jump on the bandwagon for a piece of the pie was a silver-platter prize for Hitler.... <snip>...
                        Indeed. Unfortunately for the Polish people their leaders in 20's and under "The Colonels" saw Poland offend just about every neighbour they had. In the 20s they got away with 'punching above their weight' since both Germany and Russia were extremely weak and/or preoccupied. Where Polish governments erred in the 30s was in thinking they could still compete militarily versus two major military powers while bullying smaller neighbours and potential partners.

                        This is no excuse for invasion by Germany or the USSR but considering the strengths of the opposing sides and *realpolitik* one could almost see it coming (many did).

                        Unfortunately many historians still speak of "Poland Betrayed" and abandoned by the democracies in Sep 39 but this is simply not supported by the facts. Militarily there was little that France could do until mobilisation was complete but the Poles had arguably already collapsed by the time that had taken place. An already weakened France would have only shed blood to make a political point

                        The truth is that the democracies guaranteed Poland's borders and integrity and it took nearly 5 years of war to accomplish the fact. The end results were certainly not to Poland's liking but she is still on the map today despite some extreme hardships over 45 years.
                        The Purist

                        Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by asterix View Post
                          People seem to be forgetting that Poland did the west no favors in jumping on the Munich 1938 agreement in order to grab Upper Silesia using the same argument Hitler used to seize the Sudatenland. This was a fresh little piece of bait thrown out there by Ribbentrop to see if he could cause a little fracture in the French/British/Poland alliance and it worked. Poland's zeal to jump on the bandwagon for a piece of the pie was a silver-platter prize for Hitler. The mistake France and the UK made was continuing in believing that Poland was an ally worth going to war for.

                          IMO - France and the UK lost a real chance to tell the Poles to F off. Both countries knew they were lagging in both tech and output and had begun their transition very late, until after many knew a war could not be avoided. Bumping Poland off would bought both countries much needed time to catch up in these regards and while Hitler and Stalin wore each other down.

                          Instead, both FR and UK chose to honor their agreement (which Poland always overlooks in their narrative) and both nations went through 4-1/2 years of hell for honoring that agreement.
                          Thank you asterix, that is the fairest opinion of those events that I have read for a long time on this Forum. lcm1
                          'By Horse by Tram'.


                          I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                          " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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