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  • .July 20 Bomb Plot Anniversary

    July the 20th is also an anniversary for
    ww2, in addition to the Moon Landing.

    I have an attitude to the conspiritors that is unusual. For me, they are not heroes, but self interested villains who had not the courage of their convictions

    We know today the rather substantial land and cash bribes that Adolf Hitler gave to his generals. These very same individuals, particularly Stauffenburg, all swore that the plot would succeed, even at the cost of their own lives.

    They then demonstrated the fallacy of these promises by trying to stage a coup, rather than a raw assassination.

    All these conspiritors, some with more than a little to gain from keeping Hitler exactly where he was then set in motion a plot that was bound to fail should Adolf remain alive.

    They lost their opportunity through bad planning, rather than luck. Stauffenburg should have stayed at the conference to supervise the position of his briefcase, rather than his self interested escape from the conference.
    Anything else would have been partially suicidal for Klaus, but this is exactly what he himself said he would do to rid Germany of it's leader and break the spell of tyranny whilst the Germans themselves adjusted to the idea of life without their leader.

    So, what does the readership think? Are the generals to blame themselves for being so half-hearted?

    Or was the plot plagued by sheer bad luck?, in your view

    Drusus
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  • #2
    My View? I think the majority of them were 'Two Faced'!! They wanted to eat there cake and have it two. They were attempting to play both sides against the middle so that whether the attempt was a success or a failure they could be on the winning side. They were scared stiff of Hitler and what he could have done to them if it was a failure and that in my opinion about sums it up. lcm1
    'By Horse by Tram'.


    I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
    " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
      My View? I think the majority of them were 'Two Faced'!! They wanted to eat there cake and have it two. They were attempting to play both sides against the middle so that whether the attempt was a success or a failure they could be on the winning side. They were scared stiff of Hitler and what he could have done to them if it was a failure and that in my opinion about sums it up. lcm1
      Listening to an interview with the grandson of one of the plotters it appears that Stauffenberg volunteered for a suicide bombing but the leadership of the plot wanted him alive as a credible man to talk to the Allies and ordered him not to.
      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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      • #4
        Hi Mark, possibly so, but he certainly botched his end of the procedure didn't he. lcm1
        'By Horse by Tram'.


        I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
        " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
          Hi Mark, possibly so, but he certainly botched his end of the procedure didn't he. lcm1
          Well I guess that he didn't have a lot of experience or training in blowing up fuhrers. In fact he did exactly as ordered - get the bomb as close as possible and then get out so as to be ready for the next phase. His own instinct - to get as close as possible in person and then detonate was probably better.

          There was a British operation planned to assassinate Hitler at the Berghof but it was cancelled at rather a late stage. However it was to be carried out by men with special training in assassination - former members of the Auxiliary Patrol I believe
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by MarkV View Post
            There was a British operation planned to assassinate Hitler at the Berghof but it was cancelled at rather a late stage. However it was to be carried out by men with special training in assassination - former members of the Auxiliary Patrol I believe
            So they decided against hiring big game hunter Alan Thorndike, then?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
              So they decided against hiring big game hunter Alan Thorndike, then?
              There was a story about some such thing but just that - a story - and apparently arising out of Geoffrey Household's pre war novel Rogue Male about a failed attempt to pot Adolph on the terrace by a British big game hunter and the consequences arising. Damned good novel though - much better than the BBC's disappointing attempt to make a film out of it.
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                There was a story about some such thing but just that - a story - and apparently arising out of Geoffrey Household's pre war novel Rogue Male about a failed attempt to pot Adolph on the terrace by a British big game hunter and the consequences arising. Damned good novel though - much better than the BBC's disappointing attempt to make a film out of it.
                There is the somewhat more enjoyable 1941 film Man Hunt based on the same story

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                  Well I guess that he didn't have a lot of experience or training in blowing up fuhrers. In fact he did exactly as ordered - get the bomb as close as possible and then get out so as to be ready for the next phase. His own instinct - to get as close as possible in person and then detonate was probably better.

                  There was a British operation planned to assassinate Hitler at the Berghof but it was cancelled at rather a late stage. However it was to be carried out by men with special training in assassination - former members of the Auxiliary Patrol I believe
                  Yea, I suppose so. That's the trouble with RM training, you don't entertain failing on any job!! ( No harm in secretly thinking about it though! ) lcm1
                  'By Horse by Tram'.


                  I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                  " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                    . . . . There was a British operation planned to assassinate Hitler at the Berghof but it was cancelled at rather a late stage. However it was to be carried out by men with special training in assassination - former members of the Auxiliary Patrol I believe
                    - emphasis mine

                    What is this "auxiliary patrol" of which you speak?

                    I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by slick_miester View Post
                      - emphasis mine

                      What is this "auxiliary patrol" of which you speak?
                      A body formed to be the British resistance should the UK be occupied. Their cover was that they were part of the Home Guard but in reality they were tough cookies and many went on to be SOE operatives in Europe or part of the SAS. One of their assigned tasks was the assassination of high ranking German officers and for this some were equipped with sniper rifles and silenced weapons. They had hidden underground lairs some of which are still only being found today - one near me belonging to Jacob Patrol was found a couple of years ago under the Bromyard Downs. There was a private college not far away and it seems that it was expected that it would have been impressed as a German HQ. They maintained links with a number of older men who would remain in the general population and act as target spotters. They were mentioned in Len Deighton's SS GB but he got a lot of things wrong. There have been a number of books specifically on them - The Mercian Maquis by Bernard Lowry & Mick Wilks is a good one. They had a training school at Eye Manor in Herefordshire which later became one for SOE. They were stood down in 1942 when many transferred to other clandestine units.
                      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't think it is too far-fetched to think the assassination attempt had a chance of going as planned.

                        What I DO think is far-fetched...in the event of a successful assassination, that the Allies would have sat down and talked to the "new leaders" as they believed could happen.
                        You'll live, only the best get killed.

                        -General Charles de Gaulle

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                        • #13
                          Ah yes you have a good point there, just think of the amount of Nazi wrong doings that the allies would have had to turn a blind eye to! Mind you, at that time despite the fact that many Germans of authority were aware of their diminishing chances and were wishful of backing out of that war, the Allies were dead set and rightly so that they would eventually win the conflict and make the guilty punished to the full extent. So although as is usually the case when that glorious time did eventually arrive some of the villains did vanish down the cracks, it was good the way things turned out don't you think? lcm1
                          'By Horse by Tram'.


                          I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                          " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                            A body formed to be the British resistance should the UK be occupied. Their cover was that they were part of the Home Guard but in reality they were tough cookies and many went on to be SOE operatives in Europe or part of the SAS. One of their assigned tasks was the assassination of high ranking German officers and for this some were equipped with sniper rifles and silenced weapons. They had hidden underground lairs some of which are still only being found today - one near me belonging to Jacob Patrol was found a couple of years ago under the Bromyard Downs. There was a private college not far away and it seems that it was expected that it would have been impressed as a German HQ. They maintained links with a number of older men who would remain in the general population and act as target spotters. They were mentioned in Len Deighton's SS GB but he got a lot of things wrong. There have been a number of books specifically on them - The Mercian Maquis by Bernard Lowry & Mick Wilks is a good one. They had a training school at Eye Manor in Herefordshire which later became one for SOE. They were stood down in 1942 when many transferred to other clandestine units.
                            Should the UK be occupied?? Careful lad you are treading on dangerous ground on this Forum!! lcm1
                            'By Horse by Tram'.


                            I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                            " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                              Ah yes you have a good point there, just think of the amount of Nazi wrong doings that the allies would have had to turn a blind eye to! Mind you, at that time despite the fact that many Germans of authority were aware of their diminishing chances and were wishful of backing out of that war, the Allies were dead set and rightly so that they would eventually win the conflict and make the guilty punished to the full extent. So although as is usually the case when that glorious time did eventually arrive some of the villains did vanish down the cracks, it was good the way things turned out don't you think? lcm1
                              However the Allies proved quite good at turning blind eyes when it suited such as when the criminal had a useful skill (like rocket science) or could run an industrial complex etc. The US Army employed senior officers some with very iffy records to write strategy papers, teach military classes etc
                              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                              Comment

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