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  • New information on Tiger 131

    This Youtube link says it all...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xzG_rRngs8

    Paul
    ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
    All human ills he can subdue,
    Or with a bauble or medal
    Can win mans heart for you;
    And many a blessing know to stew
    To make a megloamaniac bright;
    Give honour to the dainty Corse,
    The Pixie is a little shite.

  • #2
    Thanks for that Dibs, great find. Kind of nails the fanboy's bollocks that every time a Tigger popped
    up Tommy Atkins st himself....
    blast it with a PIAT, no good, OK, mallet the bastard with Jerry's own popgun while the Churchills are making him look the wrong way!
    On a serious note, I noted that the crew may have been taken prisoner as they were a tad close to the Forresters to leg it. Wouldn't it be great if one of 'em was still living and came forward?


    The long toll of the brave
    Is not lost in darkness
    Over the fruitful earth
    And athwart the seas
    Hath passed the light of noble deeds
    Unquenchable forever.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Von Richter View Post
      Thanks for that Dibs, great find. Kind of nails the fanboy's bollocks that every time a Tigger popped
      up Tommy Atkins st himself....
      blast it with a PIAT, no good, OK, mallet the bastard with Jerry's own popgun while the Churchills are making him look the wrong way!
      On a serious note, I noted that the crew may have been taken prisoner as they were a tad close to the Forresters to leg it. Wouldn't it be great if one of 'em was still living and came forward?

      It would be nice if one of the crew was still alive but as was said by Kate, they also may have all been killed after baling out. The new info is pretty good for the Sherwood Forester's history but also that the French 75 mm may have had some involvement in 131's demise or that it was a Churchill's 6 pounder (a much more capable A.T gun) that did the damage.

      Paul
      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
      All human ills he can subdue,
      Or with a bauble or medal
      Can win mans heart for you;
      And many a blessing know to stew
      To make a megloamaniac bright;
      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
      The Pixie is a little shite.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post

        It would be nice if one of the crew was still alive but as was said by Kate, they also may have all been killed after baling out. The new info is pretty good for the Sherwood Forester's history but also that the French 75 mm may have had some involvement in 131's demise or that it was a Churchill's 6 pounder (a much more capable A.T gun) that did the damage.

        Paul
        It wasn't per se a "French 75." It was a Pak 97/38. That is, a French Mle 1897 75mm field gun mounted on a 5cm Pak 38 carriage. It used German 75mm antitank shot with the original French shell casing. This made it roughly equal in an antitank role to the US M3 75mm or Russian 76.2mm field gun, and also equal to the 6 pdr.

        Comment


        • #5
          It's great that there is still one operational.
          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

            It wasn't per se a "French 75." It was a Pak 97/38. That is, a French Mle 1897 75mm field gun mounted on a 5cm Pak 38 carriage. It used German 75mm antitank shot with the original French shell casing. This made it roughly equal in an antitank role to the US M3 75mm or Russian 76.2mm field gun, and also equal to the 6 pdr.

            I know what it was, It was also said in the programme that it was used at point blank range. But all the same, the 6 pounder was a much better.anti-tank gun,

            Paul
            ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
            All human ills he can subdue,
            Or with a bauble or medal
            Can win mans heart for you;
            And many a blessing know to stew
            To make a megloamaniac bright;
            Give honour to the dainty Corse,
            The Pixie is a little shite.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post

              I know what it was, It was also said in the programme that it was used at point blank range. But all the same, the 6 pounder was a much better.anti-tank gun,

              Paul
              Not really. The 6 pdr and the Pak 97/38 have almost identical armor piercing performance with shot. They both weigh about the same (within a few kg of one and other). The Pak 97/38 has the big advantage in that it also fires a useful HE shell (either French or German), and has a HEAT round available (German) giving it a long range antitank capacity.
              The Pak 97/38's big disadvantage is that it's not the most stable gun when fired. The carriage is a bit overloaded.

              I purely an antitank role the 6 pdr has a slight advantage over the Pak 97/38. It is better designed. But, in any other way the Pak 97/38 beats the snot out of a 6 pdr.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                Not really. The 6 pdr and the Pak 97/38 have almost identical armor piercing performance with shot. They both weigh about the same (within a few kg of one and other). The Pak 97/38 has the big advantage in that it also fires a useful HE shell (either French or German), and has a HEAT round available (German) giving it a long range antitank capacity.
                The Pak 97/38's big disadvantage is that it's not the most stable gun when fired. The carriage is a bit overloaded.

                I purely an antitank role the 6 pdr has a slight advantage over the Pak 97/38. It is better designed. But, in any other way the Pak 97/38 beats the snot out of a 6 pdr.
                You can please yourself (something you seem to do on a regular basis). The 6pdr was much the better AT gun and its penetrative power was much better too.
                ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                All human ills he can subdue,
                Or with a bauble or medal
                Can win mans heart for you;
                And many a blessing know to stew
                To make a megloamaniac bright;
                Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                The Pixie is a little shite.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post

                  You can please yourself (something you seem to do on a regular basis). The 6pdr was much the better AT gun and its penetrative power was much better too.
                  It was better, but not that much better. Overall it had about 20% better penetration, but only had solid shot. As I stated, there was no HE round (one finally was issued about August 1944 after the US started issuing one in March 44), no HEAT round (the German one had better penetration at and beyond 1000 yards over the 6 pdr's shot).

                  As an gun, there's not much to choose other than the German gun tends to buck when fired. The two guns weigh the same and are near identical in size so they're equally difficult to manhandle and emplace.

                  So, as an all-around gun the Pak 97/38 has some serious advantages, most notably the availability of an HE round.

                  The US developed an HE round for their M1 57mm gun because they recognized the value of having one, and it was used more often than the AP rounds were once issued in service. But, that's typical of these weapons. They made good battalion guns if you had HE rounds. Without them, much of the time they were just dead weight.
                  As an example of that, each US armored infantry battalion had a platoon of three assigned. Almost across the board, these battalions ditched the guns leaving them in the rear and used the halftracks and crew as additional infantry. The last thing they needed were more antitank weapons when they almost always had tank support.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here's the difference: You have a Tiger I and a mid model Churchill. Both have roughly equal armor protection, certainly good enough for the most part to stop either a 6 pdr or Pak 97/38 round when it hits.

                    The Tiger versus a 6 pdr, can upon discovering its position lob a few HE rounds in from whatever range and take the gun and crew out with relative ease.
                    The Churchill versus a Pak 97/38, while difficult to penetrate, is facing a real problem. The 6 pdr can't take the gun out except by sheer luck with a solid shot while the antitank gun can pepper the Churchill with rounds, including HE, and likely damage the tank sufficiently to disable it. The only real hope the Churchill has is to close to point blank range and use its machineguns on the crew.

                    Little wonder that 6 pdr Churchills weren't wanted in Italy. They had a completely wrong armament for the campaign. Luckily, a British engineering officer took it upon himself, without official instruction, to modify the available Churchills into Churchill NA's with a US M3 75mm gun off the Sherman tank. The slight loss of antitank capability was more than made up for by the Churchill NA's ability to fire HE, smoke, WP, and other non armor piercing rounds. That made the Churchill desirable and it finally got committed to combat in Italy.

                    Even the Russians saw that. They wanted to ditch the 2 pdr on their early lend-lease Valentine tanks for their own 45mm gun because it had an HE round. The British were able to scrape up some 2 pdr HE ammunition from somewhere and deliver it to the Russians. That's the only reason the 45mm wasn't put on the Valentine.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      Here's the difference: You have a Tiger I and a mid model Churchill. Both have roughly equal armor protection, certainly good enough for the most part to stop either a 6 pdr or Pak 97/38 round when it hits.

                      The Tiger versus a 6 pdr, can upon discovering its position lob a few HE rounds in from whatever range and take the gun and crew out with relative ease.
                      The Churchill versus a Pak 97/38, while difficult to penetrate, is facing a real problem. The 6 pdr can't take the gun out except by sheer luck with a solid shot while the antitank gun can pepper the Churchill with rounds, including HE, and likely damage the tank sufficiently to disable it. The only real hope the Churchill has is to close to point blank range and use its machineguns on the crew.

                      Little wonder that 6 pdr Churchills weren't wanted in Italy. They had a completely wrong armament for the campaign. Luckily, a British engineering officer took it upon himself, without official instruction, to modify the available Churchills into Churchill NA's with a US M3 75mm gun off the Sherman tank. The slight loss of antitank capability was more than made up for by the Churchill NA's ability to fire HE, smoke, WP, and other non armor piercing rounds. That made the Churchill desirable and it finally got committed to combat in Italy.

                      Even the Russians saw that. They wanted to ditch the 2 pdr on their early lend-lease Valentine tanks for their own 45mm gun because it had an HE round. The British were able to scrape up some 2 pdr HE ammunition from somewhere and deliver it to the Russians. That's the only reason the 45mm wasn't put on the Valentine.
                      An HE round was developed for the 6 pounder in 1943 but due to production priority problems they did not reach operational units until 1944
                      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                        An HE round was developed for the 6 pounder in 1943 but due to production priority problems they did not reach operational units until 1944
                        Wonder why that was almost always the case where the British Army was concerned? The Navy got all the latest tackle to fight their war, the Raff did too... then you get the PBI landing in Normandy with popguns nary advanced from those they left behind in !940?
                        The long toll of the brave
                        Is not lost in darkness
                        Over the fruitful earth
                        And athwart the seas
                        Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                        Unquenchable forever.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Production of HE shells in the UK began in 1942. They were issued to tank and anti-tank regiments by 1943.
                          Gerry Chester of the North Irish Horse:
                          "6-pdr HE was extensively and successfully used by the North Irish Horse in the Oued Zarga mountains and the Battle for Longstop Hill. Also by 51st Bn. Royal Tank Regiment after receiving supplies of HE following its arrival in North Africa. 6-pdr A/P, which effectively took care of Tigers - a Churchill of the NIH was the first tank to knock one out - was much superior to that of the 75mm."
                          http://web.archive.org/web/200901310...es/na75/1.html

                          New Zealand Divisional Artillery Official History, January 1943:
                          "
                          At long last, too, some HE ammunition arrived for the 6-pounders and it prompted an experiment with indirect fire by these guns. A sun compass was converted to give the line and a field clinometer gave the elevation. Major Nicholson of 31 Battery conducted a shoot,"
                          http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/schol...rti-c14-6.html 0 Links


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                            Little wonder that 6 pdr Churchills weren't wanted in Italy. They had a completely wrong armament for the campaign.
                            The 6-pdr armed Churchill was the most common type of the tank in Italy until near the end.
                            AFV returns on 23rd September 1944 show 169 Churchills with 6-pdrs, 49 with 75mm, 29 with the old 3" guns and 14 with the 95mm with formations.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Nice video!
                              My worst jump story:
                              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                              No lie.

                              ~
                              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

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