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  • Kursk

    I am just reading about Kursk and the "eye opening" the Germans had that the Soviet Union was a power to be nearly that equalled to the United States.
    It seems that the Germans decided that the Russians were not as easy as they had seemed at first as they basically fought to a standstill and went on the defensive.
    Its hard to believe that the German records admit to 907,000 casualties!!
    Plus the loss of the Panzer divisions, which seemed to hurt them more.

    Mark
    Deo Vindice
    Si vis pacem, para bellum. (If you want peace, prepare for war.)

  • #2
    1943, 1944 and 1945...each time Hitler rebuilt his mobile reserves strength, he p***ed it away in ill-conceived offensive ops: Kursk 1943, the Ardennes 1944 and the Hungarian oilfields offensive in early 1945.

    If Hitler hadn't decided to attack the Russians in the obvious location, when their intel and spies told them they would, where could the Germans have best used the panzer strength to their best advantage? As a mobile defense of southern Russia? Sicily?
    The Italian mainland after September wasn't ideal tank terrain. The strategic defensive of southern Russia, parrying and destroying Russian mobile breakthroughs makes the most sense but could the German have afforded to give up the initiative to the Russians right at the point where the Russian mobile combined arms doctrine was becoming much more effective?

    Comment


    • #3
      Do you mind me asking, last_cav1971, what book you are reading right now?

      Kursk was next on my list of battles to really get to grips with and find out some detailed history. I'm after recommendations for reading material.

      Thanks,

      Dr. S.
      Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

      www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

      www.tabletown.co.uk

      Comment


      • #4
        Here's some reading material + photo sources from the web:


        German "Panther" tanks in the Orel region.



        Sources:

        * Battle of Kursk <-- Nice article from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

        * The Kursk Battle <-- Interesting articles, documents, maps, check it out !

        * Kursk - July, 1943 <-- Orders of Battle, Photos, etc. This is the Kursk Page.

        * The Wolf by the Ears: The Battle of Kursk July, 1943 <-- Just read it ! Great story !

        * Battle of Kursk ( russian photo archive )

        * Clash at Kharkov and Kursk ( Article from the "Leibstandarte SS" page )

        * Kursk and Beyond - Summer 1943 ( from: Operational history of the 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich" )

        * Battle near Kursk In the brief immediate strategic description, comprised by the association of the officers of the military history division of General Staff, are given description of July- August operations in the environs of Kursk, Orel and Kharkov, lustrously carry ouied by the Red Army in the summer of 1943 description, it is divided into two divisions in connection with two stages of this immense battle: 1) defensive battle near Kursk (on 5 - 12 July 1943 g.) and 2) the offensive of the Red Army and the crushing defeat of Orel and Belgorod- Kharkov groupings of Germans (on 12 July --23 August of 1943). The lessons and conclusions briefly are given in conclusion. The book is intended for the Generals and the officers of the Red Army.

        Artwork

        * Wittmann's Tiger at Kursk by Barry Spicer

        * "Clash of Steel", Prokhorovka, Kursk, 12th July 1943 by David Pentland

        Additional photos

        * Brennender deutscher Panzer in der Schlacht um Kursk Photographie - Kursk, Juli/August 1943

        * Gefangengenommener deutscher Unteroffizier neben zerstörtem Geschütz während der Schlacht um Kursk Photographie - Kursk, Juli/August 1943

        Additional maps

        * Kursk battle. Defensive battles. ( 1943 )

        * Kursk battle. Counterattack. ( 1943 )

        * Counterattack near Kursk. ( 1943 )

        Free Internet Translation Service

        * Babelfish

        Regards, Sven

        Comment


        • #5
          Kursk - Wittmann's heoric feats

          I agree that Kursk became one of the deadliest tank battle in World War Two. It also made a hero out of German Captain Michael Wittmann (1st SS panzer division). At Kursk, he destroyed eight T-34s and several Russian anti-tank weapons. Him and his crew won iron crosses for their feats at Kursk.

          Sepp Dietrich, his division commander, applauded his efforts. Dietrich, on one occasion, asked Wittmann on how he could award him. Wittmann reply to Dietrich by asking him to help a Russian tank crew for medical assistance. (Wittmann and his crew went to aid them after they received several burns after a direct hit.

          For more on Wittmann at Kursk, read Tiger Ace, The Story of Michael Wittmann by Gary L. Simpson.
          VonMoltke

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          • #6
            Today I've found a nice Kursk movie ( you need realplayer to watch it ) !

            The Battle on Kursk salient 1943

            It's the middle movie in the third row from above.

            Regards, Sven

            P.S. There are other cool videos as well, and lots of damn good photos...maybe you should browse through the site with Babelfish ! ?

            Comment


            • #7
              The movie of the battle of Kursk

              Sven,

              Thanks for the site. I will check it out.
              VonMoltke

              Comment


              • #8
                Kursk mysteries !

                Hi everybody

                Ia m a French Fan of the Kursk battle,
                could you give me some helps about dollwing stuffs ?


                - Did Russian use Flamethrower Tanks OT34 and KV8 ? If Yes, numbers and units if you know of course !!


                - Does the number of KV1s is known as far as now (units involved ?)


                - How many T-60 fought during the period 5-15 July of Kursk ?


                - Quantities and type of Marder used by german Army ?
                ...I mean Marder II
                MarderII(76,2mm)
                Marder III (76,2mm)
                Marder IIIh
                Marder IIIm

                - Numbers and German units using STUH42
                (Any in SS Div ?)

                - Units using Lend-Lease equipment ?


                ... AND THE HARDEST ONE :
                Approximative quantities of each following tank in soviet army ?

                T-34 M42
                T-34 M43

                Thank you very much indeed.

                those who can answer to these questions are real gods

                Thanks.

                SPASIBO BOL'SHOIE. ochen nadeius na oyvet

                Yann

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sounds like a job for Amvas and his band of merry komrades! :thumb:
                  Stay Alert, Stay Alive!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jim H. Moreno
                    Sounds like a job for Amvas and his band of merry komrades! :thumb:
                    He, Jim, you overestimating my abilities :bowdown:
                    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Best source is the Voennoe Istoricheskii Zhurnal (Military Historical Journal)
                      Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                      (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Combat Engineer
                        1943, 1944 and 1945...each time Hitler rebuilt his mobile reserves strength, he p***ed it away in ill-conceived offensive ops: Kursk 1943, the Ardennes 1944 and the Hungarian oilfields offensive in early 1945.

                        If Hitler hadn't decided to attack the Russians in the obvious location, when their intel and spies told them they would, where could the Germans have best used the panzer strength to their best advantage? As a mobile defense of southern Russia? Sicily?
                        The Italian mainland after September wasn't ideal tank terrain. The strategic defensive of southern Russia, parrying and destroying Russian mobile breakthroughs makes the most sense but could the German have afforded to give up the initiative to the Russians right at the point where the Russian mobile combined arms doctrine was becoming much more effective?
                        Manstein had a plan that would have struck a month earlier - this may have achieved success though, in my opinion, the best move would have been not to fight at Kursk. Peripherally related, I played a wargame of the Kursk campaign many times as the Russians, and never even came close to losing.
                        Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                        (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by hogdriver
                          Manstein had a plan that would have struck a month earlier - this may have achieved success though, in my opinion, the best move would have been not to fight at Kursk.
                          As it was, Manstein's advance as the southern fork very nearly achieved success.

                          If Army Detachment Kempf's 3rd Pz Corps had been able to adequately cover 4th Pz Army's right flank, the Prokhorovka battle may very well have resulted in a different outcome.
                          Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Kursk

                            Originally posted by last_cav1971
                            I am just reading about Kursk and the "eye opening" the Germans had that the Soviet Union was a power to be nearly that equalled to the United States.
                            It seems that the Germans decided that the Russians were not as easy as they had seemed at first as they basically fought to a standstill and went on the defensive.
                            Its hard to believe that the German records admit to 907,000 casualties!!
                            Plus the loss of the Panzer divisions, which seemed to hurt them more.

                            Mark
                            Deo Vindice
                            German causalties taken from Wik:

                            Overall German casualties have been said to number more than 500,000 killed or wounded. This again has been proven to be Soviet propaganda. Their losses were in no way extraordinarily. The Soviet casualty figures were not released until the end of the communist regime, and comprised 250,000 killed and 600,000 wounded. They also lost 50% of their tank strength during the Kursk offensive.
                            http://canadiangenealogyandresearch.ca

                            Soviet and Canadian medal collector!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Check this thread my friend. It should answer alot of your questions.

                              http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...=&threadid=583
                              http://canadiangenealogyandresearch.ca

                              Soviet and Canadian medal collector!

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