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  • #46
    Originally posted by MarkV View Post

    Indeed it can be argued that the Germans put the 262 into service before adequate training was in place for jet pilots. This is evidenced by the high accident rate due to fighter pilots new to the aircraft and without instrument training flying into the ground coming out of low cloud at speeds too high to pull up in time. . However so lacking in resources was Germany by this stage that there was no possible way to give such training to existing pilots in adequate numbers. The fact that Germany hurried this new weapon into service in such circumstances is evidence of desperation


    Do you think that the Luftwaffe was the first air arm to take shortcuts with pilot training where operational pressures demanded it?

    No.

    I don't think so.

    By your metric, the RAF was showing desperation by introducing Spitfires in an untimely manner.

    How many hours 'you done on Spits Simon?

    On Spits Sir, ten and a half.

    Well make it eleven before Jerry has you for breakfast.
    Last edited by At ease; 25 Sep 18, 10:55.
    "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
    "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

    "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
    Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

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    • #47
      The above is, of course, a short clip from the movie "The Battle of Britain" which, whilst not claiming to be 100% authentic, is known to have a very strong basis in fact.

      I can find a number of my postings here @ACG from earlier threads about "shortcuts" taken with RAF pilot training in the midst of the actual "Battle.....", if you wish to dispute this.

      e.g. :

      https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...68#post2565768
      Last edited by At ease; 25 Sep 18, 11:09.
      "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
      "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

      "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
      Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

      Comment


      • #48
        One of the few clear items that most countries actually made use of postwar was the German Type XXI U-boat. The US commissioned two. Britain commissioned one. The Soviets commissioned at least a half dozen.

        With the US, they made extensive tests and trials with theirs. The GHG sonar was closely studied. The US Navy started the GUPPY program to upgrade US submarines to equal or better the Type XXI. The Soviets basically copied the design as the Whiskey, Zulu, and later Romeo class submarines. The Golf class ballistic missile boats were essentially Zulu class boats modified to carry three SLBM's.

        It is one of the few technologies that other nations put in service, and kept in service in some cases for years. The British didn't decommission their Type XXI until 1949. The US kept theirs in some degree of service until 1948. The Soviets until the early 50's.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          One of the few clear items that most countries actually made use of postwar was the German Type XXI U-boat. The US commissioned two. Britain commissioned one. The Soviets commissioned at least a half dozen.
          Good point there.

          I was thinking about IR tech. The Germans, as always, developed it and fielded it, and I know the Allies were researching about it. But I don't know whether the Allies also fielded any actual device based on that, and I don't know if they captured and studied any German devices (such as the Vampir IR targeting devices). Can anybody shed any (IR or otherwise) light on this?

          Michele

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          • #50
            Britain put in a lot of effort between the wars looking at IR for use by night fighters but abandoned this in favour of radar development,

            British sources used the possibility of British deployment of IR as a means of disinformation. increases in in Coastal Commend strikes against surfaced U boats and other small craft such as E boats were the result of improved air borne radar. Sufficient information was 'leaked' so as to convince the Germans that it was due to the deployment of active IR devices. As a result they put a lot of effort into developing a paint containing minute glass balls that would break up any IR reflections and then repainting U and E boats in it.
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Michele View Post

              Good point there.

              I was thinking about IR tech. The Germans, as always, developed it and fielded it, and I know the Allies were researching about it. But I don't know whether the Allies also fielded any actual device based on that, and I don't know if they captured and studied any German devices (such as the Vampir IR targeting devices). Can anybody shed any (IR or otherwise) light on this?
              German IR tech was initially copied to a limited degree by the US and Britain. However, most of it was found to be too coarse and short ranged to be effective. The big breakthrough was using liquid nitrogen to cool the seeker head. I think this was first done by Hughes (now Raytheon) about 1958 - 60 with the AIM 4 Falcon missile. The Sidewinder and British Firestreak followed suit soon afterwards.

              As noted, the Vampir IR system was copied more or less exactly in the US as the M1 IR sighting system used with the M3 Carbine. It was noted as very difficult to use both due to the bulkiness of the equipment as well as its relatively short range.


              http://www.koreanwaronline.com/arms/m1irsnip.htm

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              • #52
                IIRC, a couple of examples of the technology competition and "plunder" during the war would be the occasion where a Brit Commando raid on Europe North Coast stole a "new" German radar so the Allies could gauge their current tech level.

                Another item that comes to mind was the Japanese sending divers down to the wrecks of the Repulse and Prince of Wales to retrieve their radar equipment so that Japan could learn more on how to upgrade their systems.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                  IIRC, a couple of examples of the technology competition and "plunder" during the war would be the occasion where a Brit Commando raid on Europe North Coast stole a "new" German radar so the Allies could gauge their current tech level.
                  I suppose that's operation Biting, against the Bruneval radar station. It goes back to the notion I mentioned in post #45: the purpose of the operation wasn't gaining some technology the raiding party did not possess, but assess the enemy's version of it and come up with countermeasures (in this case, Window chaff, which the British already had, but the data from Bruneval confirmed its likely effectiveness).

                  Michele

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                  • #54
                    Bump

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                    • #55
                      While this is post war, the Ryan Firebird started life in late 1944 as an AAM. (on a P-82)



                      This was to be a beam riding or semi-active radar guided missile.

                      The comparable German tech is the X-4 Ruhrstal missile:



                      It was to be wire guided (!) and controlled by a joy stick.


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                      • #56
                        ^ I notice this is a gun-free F-51.
                        That looks to have kept the pilot a bit busy, having to fly both the aircraft and the missile.
                        Did they try this on the F-82?
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_...2_Twin_Mustang

                        Slight footnote here. While text of the Wiki link has these being retired/withdrawn about 1951, I have distinct memory of seeing some flying over my hometown (Enumclaw, WA) about mid 50's when I was about primary school age. I didn't know enough at that age about aircraft to know what these were, only years later did I become aware of the F-82 and realize/recall this is what I must have seen. Probably about 4-6 flying by the Cascades in a fairly close formation. Enumclaw being about 20 miles or so NE of McChord.

                        Ooohps, my bad. Closer look shows this is a P/F-82.

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                        • #57
                          The plane shown is a DF-82C or G. It is a nightfighter conversion to a "Director" fighter. At the time the USAF was calling aircraft using guided missiles "Director Fighters." A DB-26B Invader was also fitted out for testing AAM's at this time.

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