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  • #16
    When Bert Ernest crashed the Me262 at NAS Patuxent (some time in the late 1940s, I'd have to do some real digging to find an exact date), according to him, related to me, personally, and at least one other present at the time, and also involved in the same conversation, the reaction was pretty much, "is Bert okay?" Nobody really cared about the loss of the 262, the consensus was that who really cared about "old" German technology when newer, better performing, better handling, and less maintenance intensive aircraft were starting to make appearances on a fairly regular basis.
    hmmm . . . I wonder what THIS button does . . . uh oh

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by MarkV View Post
      Hitlers policy of divide and rule when it came to his key supporters meant that they all vied for power and responsibility which meant that many things in the 3rd Reich were repeated many times. Each project would have a senior Nazi 'courtier' as a sponsor. If Goring sponsored a project Goebbels and Himmler etc would be found sponsoring rival projects. This applied in spades to weapons development. This dispersed and diluted effort. Churchill established a system of scientific and technical committees to filter such projects so that very quickly there would be one development track and possibly a back up which could be dropped as soon as it became clear that the main one would work. The US soon established a similar regime. There was also a joint arrangement so that in many cases either the British or the US solution would be adopted as the main Western Allied approach. This did sometimes mean that sometimes it can be seen in retrospect that that a superior technical solution was abandoned but it did mean that many more new weapons were available for deployment before the war ended than would otherwise have been the case. A good example is the proximity fuse. . When the war ended Germany had about five different projects for proximity fuses running, some following very innovative technical solutions. The Allies were already using proximity fuses extensively both for AA and for ground work.
      The US was using that approach prior to WW 2. The US didn't "adopt" it from the British. The US norm prior to WW 2, and during the war, was to offer up a general specification for some sort of aircraft. Manufacturers were largely free to tender bids on that and those selected, at least two, would then build two prototypes each for testing.
      The winner from that testing would then proceed to build a dozen or so pre-production planes (Y* planes) for further evaluation. Once these were proofed, the plane would be ordered into production.

      The US / British solution system once the war started usually involved both at the initial level of the invention. For example, RCA was developing a floating sonobuoy that would be much like a large harbor buoy and float at sea for prolonged periods transmitting it's detections. The British came up with the idea for an expendable one to be dropped from ships to extend their listening. The British had no capacity to follow up on the idea so it was handed to the Americans who gave it to RCA who turned it into an air droppable version, the CRT 1. This soon went into mass production in the US and by the beginning of 1943 started to be used by aircraft hunting U-boats.

      Hedgehog was another. The British invented it, the US produced it. The US also took the original bomb and fitted it with a rocket motor to form Mousetrap, a lightweight rocket version of Hedgehog. They then mounted Hedgehog bombs on planes and invented a vertical drop version called the Retrorocket (aka Retrobomb).



      The Admiralty never was really keen on the hedgehog and went to the Limbo / Squid mortar while the US improved Hedgehog with a trainable mount, then turned it into a bombardment rocket:



      Chaff was a British invention, but a US paper company developed a machine that could make mass quantities of it as cheaply as possible. Interestingly, it was the Japanese who first used chaff operationally at Guadalcanal in their night bombing missions...


      Comment


      • #18
        ^T.A.Gardner I appreciate your posts and information here, but I think, like some, you may be coming to this from a hindsight position. Consider trying from the 1943-44 perspective of the West Allies; UK & USA; where it looks that they suspected Germany of 'cutting edge tech' in the technology races being run at that time ... hence such organizations as BIOS, CIOS, & FIAT.

        Which followed closely on the heels of Allied advance military units as they plunged into German held territory, and core of Germany especially, often seeming to have a ' shopping list' of where to go, whom to find, and what to take. Interestingly at times, these "tech plunder-grabs" were into turf that would be part of the post-war Soviet Zones of occupation and control.

        And there were many useful tech gains to be had. Some were of the industrial and technique sort, others of advanced weapons tech. Germany was doing some fruitful work in the application of Infra-red for night-time illumination and targeting(weapons sighting).

        Though they may not have 'invented' it, they were leading in application of snorkels to submarines.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_snorkel
        A few other examples to mention, but will do so in other posts.

        Part of where I'm tying to take this is into those areas that did look to be of intense interest and resources by Nazi Germany that seemed to "vanish" as the war came to a close and the Cold War set in ...

        Even more interestingly, is how certain persons and projects seem to "disappear" from records of the time, as if not only "redlined", but also shuttled into the "Black" world ...

        Comment


        • #19
          Another area of tech lead for Nazi Germany was in "rockets". Design bitch all one may want, but the A-4/V-2 was the only intra-continental rocket combat employed during the war. And was a bit ahead of any similar projects in work by the Allies, or other Axis powers.

          The "Interesting" part comes with consideration of the A-9/A-10 designs, crossing the threshold into inter-Continental rockets, or "ICBM"s.;
          EXCERPT:
          ...
          German intercontinental boost-glide missile. The A9/A10 was the world's first practical design for a transatlantic ballistic missile. Design of the two stage missile began in 1940 and first flight would have been in 1946. Work on the A9/A10 was prohibited after 1943 when all efforts were to be spent on perfection and production of the A4 as a weapon-in-being. Von Braun managed to continue some development and flight tests of the A9 under the cover name of A4b (i.e. a modification of the A4, and therefore a production-related project). In late 1944 work on the A9/A10 resumed under the code name Projekt Amerika, but no significant hardware development was possible after the last test of the A4b in January 1945.

          http://www.astronautix.com/a/a9a10.html

          Note the stop-start process likely reflects the shift from an Army/Wehrmacht project to an S.S. one.

          Comment


          • #20
            There's also the interesting case of German submarine, U-234 ;
            ....
            German submarine U-234 was a Type XB U-boat of Nazi Germany's Kriegsmarine during World War II. Her first and only mission into enemy or contested territory consisted of the attempted delivery of uranium oxide and German advanced weapons technology to the Empire of Japan. After receiving Admiral Dönitz' order to surface and surrender and of Germany's unconditional surrender, the submarine's crew surrendered to the United States on 14 May 1945.
            ....

            Wartime service

            U-234 returned to the Germaniawerft yard at Kiel on 5 September 1944, to be refitted as a transport. Apart from minor work, she had a snorkel added and 12 of her 30 mineshafts were fitted with special cargo containers the same diameter as the shafts and held in place by the mine release mechanisms. In addition, her keel was loaded with cargo, thought to be optical-grade glass and mercury, and her four upper-deck torpedo storage compartments (two on each side) were also occupied by cargo containers.[3]

            Cargo

            The cargo to be carried was determined by a special commission, the Marine Sonderdienst Ausland, established towards the end of 1944, at which time the submarine's officers were informed that they were to make a special voyage to Japan. When loading was completed, the submarine's officers estimated that they were carrying 240 tons of cargo plus sufficient diesel fuel and provisions for a six- to nine-month voyage.[3]

            The cargo included technical drawings, examples of the newest electric torpedoes, one crated Me 262 jet aircraft, a Henschel Hs 293 glide bomb and what was later listed on the US Unloading Manifest[citation needed] as 550 kg (1,210 lb) of uranium oxide. In the 1997 book Hirschfeld, Wolfgang Hirschfeld reported that he saw about 50 lead cubes with 23 centimetres (9.1 in) sides, and "U-235" painted on each, loaded into the boat's cylindrical mine shafts. According to cable messages sent from the dockyard, these containers held "U-powder".[4][5]

            When the cargo was loaded, U-234 carried out additional trials near Kiel, then returned to the northern German city where her passengers came aboard.

            Passengers

            U-234 was carrying twelve passengers, including a German general, four German naval officers, civilian engineers and scientists and two Japanese naval officers. The German personnel included General Ulrich Kessler of the Luftwaffe, who was to take over Luftwaffe liaison duties in Tokyo; Kay Nieschling, a Naval Fleet Judge Advocate who was to rid the German diplomatic corps in Japan of the remnants of the Richard Sorge spy ring; Dr. Heinz Schlicke, a specialist in radar, infra-red, and countermeasures and director of the Naval Test Fields in Kiel (later recruited by the USA in Operation Paperclip); and August Bringewalde, who was in charge of Me 262 production at Messerschmitt.[5]

            The Japanese passengers were Lieutenant Commander Hideo Tomonaga of the Imperial Japanese Navy, a naval architect and submarine designer who had come to Germany in 1943 on the Japanese submarine I-29, and Lieutenant Commander Shoji Genzo, an aircraft specialist and former naval attaché.[6]
            ...........

            ....U-234 surfaced on 10 May in the interests of better radio reception and received Dönitz's last order to the submarine force, ordering all U-boats to surface, hoist black flags and surrender to Allied forces. Fehler suspected a trick and managed to contact another U-boat (U-873), whose captain convinced him that the message was authentic.

            At this point, Fehler was practically equidistant from British, Canadian and American ports. He decided not to continue his journey, and instead headed for the east coast of the United States. Fehler thought it likely that if they surrendered to Canadian or British forces, they would be imprisoned and it could be years before they were returned to Germany; he believed that the US, on the other hand, would probably just send them home.

            Fehler consequently decided that he would surrender to US forces, but radioed on 12 May that he intended to sail to Halifax, Nova Scotia to surrender to ensure Canadian units would not reach him first. U-234 then set course for Newport News, Virginia; during the passage Fehler took care to dispose of his Tunis radar detector, the new Kurier radio communication system, and all Enigma related documents and other classified papers. On learning that the U-boat was to surrender, the two Japanese passengers committed suicide by taking an overdose of Luminal (a barbiturate sedative and antiepileptic drug). They were buried at sea.[6]
            ....

            Secret cargo

            A classified US intelligence summary written on 19 May listed U-234's cargo as including drawings, arms, medical supplies, instruments, lead, mercury, caffeine, steels, optical glass and brass.[8] The fact that the ship carried 1,200 pounds (540 kg) of uranium oxide remained classified for the duration of the Cold War.[9] Author and historian Joseph M. Scalia claimed to have found a formerly secret cable at Portsmouth Navy Yard which stated that the uranium oxide had been stored in gold-lined cylinders rather than cubes as reported by Hirschfeld; the alleged document is discussed in Scalia's book Hitler's Terror Weapons. The exact characteristics of the uranium remain unknown; Scalia and historians Carl Boyd and Akihiko Yoshida have speculated that rather than being weapons-grade material it was instead intended for use as a catalyst in the production of synthetic methanol for aviation fuel.[4]

            The 1,200 pounds (540 kg) of uranium disappeared. It was most likely transferred to the Manhattan Project's Oak Ridge diffusion plant. The uranium oxide would have yielded approximately 7.7 pounds (3.5 kg) of 235U after processing, around 20% of what would have been required to arm a contemporary fission weapon.[10]
            ....
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            Uranium stored in gold-lined containers is a very curious part here. One does such to block gamma rays which would suggest this uranium was no longer "oxide"(ore), but enriched to some degree ...
            .... which could suggest that Germany was further along in atom bomb development than what has generally been made public(White).
            Last edited by G David Bock; 23 Sep 18, 00:28.

            Comment


            • #21
              .....
              Anybody familiar with Nazi Germany will be familiar with Himmler, Speer, Bormann and such but few have ever heard of Hans Kammler. Kammler was a General in the SS, rather an accomplishment any way you look at it. Kammler "was regarded by many in the Nazi hierarchy as the most powerful man in Germany outside the Cabinet." (*Blunder! How the U.S. Gave Away Nazi Supersecrets to Russia,* by Tom Agoston, Dodd, Mead & Co.)

              Kammler, whose position of authority was directly under Himmler, was in charge of Hitler's most secret projects, specifically projects such as the world's first jet engines and rockets. He had over 14 million people working for him, mostly building UNDERGROUND factories. Agoston said his projects were equivalent to being in charge of building the Great Pyramids or the Coliseum in Rome. Speer said that he believed that Kammler was being considered to take his (Speer's) position.

              Albert Speer, in his book *Spandau, The Secret Diaries" brags that it was he who ordered Werner Heisenberg to stop building an atomic bomb and concentrate on a "uranium motor" for aircraft. Towards the end of the war, Hitler even made Göring and Speer subordinate to Kammler. Eisenhower admits in *Crusade In Europe* that the Nazis were within 6 months of developing advanced weapons that would have changed the outcome of the war.

              ....
              http://www.456fis.org/8-Hans_Kammler.htm

              Comment


              • #22
                ....
                Kammler was born in Stettin, Germany. In 1919, after volunteering for army service, he served in the Rossbach Freikorps . From 1919 to 1923 he studied civil engineering in Munich and Danzig. He joined the NSDAP in 1932 and held a variety of administrative positions when the Nazi government came to power, initially in the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM - Aviation Ministry). In 1940 he joined the SS, where from 1942 he worked at designing facilities for the extermination camps, including gas chambers and crematoria. Kammler eventually became Oswald Pohl's Deputy in the WVHA (Reich Administrative and Economic Main Office), which oversaw Amtsgruppe D (Amt D), the Administration of the concentration camp system, and was also Chief of Amt C, which designed and constructed all of the concentration and extermination camps. Following the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in 1943, Heinrich Himmler assigned him to overseeing the demolition of the ghetto in retaliation.

                Kammler was also charged with constructing facilities for various secret weapons projects, including manufacturing plants and test stands for the Messerschmitt Me 262 and V-2. Following the Allied bombing raids on Peenemünde in "Operation Hydra" on August 17, 1943, Kammler was assigned to moving these production facilities underground, which resulted in the Mittelwerk facility and its attendant concentration camp complex, Mittelbau-Dora, which housed slave labour for constructing the factory and working on the production lines. He was also assigned to the construction of facilities at Jonastal and Riesengebirge for nuclear weapons research and at Ebensee to develop a V-2 derived ICBM.

                In 1944, Himmler convinced Hitler to put the V-2 project directly under SS control, and on August 6 replaced Walter Dornberger with Kammler as its director. From January 1945, he was placed as head of all missile projects and just a month later was given charge of all German aerospace programs as these came under SS authority as well.
                ......

                http://www.456fis.org/8-Hans_Kammler.htm

                Comment


                • #23
                  ....
                  A recent (2001) book by Nick Cook, The Hunt for Zero Point investigates the possibility that Kammler was brought
                  to the United States along with many other German scientists as part of the program known as "Operation Paperclip" (Christopher Simpson, Blowback).


                  There are no known facts that support this theory. There have been no "Kammler sightings" since the end of the war, contrary to the cases of other Nazi war criminals such as Mengele. In addition, Kammler was not a physicist or rocket engineer. He was primarily an administrator and as such would have few skills of value to the Americans.

                  There is a trail of evidence that indicates in the closing days of the Reich that Kammler used a long-range multi-engined aircraft to ship a large body of research material and prototypes out of the Reich. The book documents much of this evidence. References to Kammler in the official literature relating to the Nuremberg trials have been deleted. In fact, despite the knowledge that Kammler was, in many ways, number three in the Nazi hierarchy in 1945, his name only comes up once, in an indirect reference by Dornberger, during the war crimes trials, including the trial of his subordinates in December 1957 in Arnsberg, Westphalia.
                  ....
                  http://www.456fis.org/8-Hans_Kammler.htm

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Blunder! How the U.S. Gave Away Nazi Supersecrets to Russia
                    From Tom Agoston,


                    SS Obergruppenführer Dr. Ing. (Doctor of Engineering) Hans Kammler, now little known to popular history, architect of the infamous Auschwitz death camps, responsible for the demolition of the Warsaw ghetto, and by the end of the war, the Third Reich's plenipotentiary for all secret weapons research, responsible directly to Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler and to Adolf Hitler himself…….

                    Kammler boasted almost the perfect "corporate resume" and a documentable record of "whole person management" as a "team player":

                    A modern day management consultant who was talent hunting for a "total professional with total involvement" would certainly have been fascinated by the bizarre curriculum vitae Kammler could have submitted. He could demonstrate a "track record" in "very senior appointments," with skill in putting across "aggressive growth plans."...

                    In the Third Reich, within a span of a few years, the number of positions he had held in turn was phenomenal.

                    Among these "senior appointments" Kammler once commanded were:
                    (1) Operational control of the V-l and V-2 terror bombardments of
                    London,
                    Liege,
                    Brussels,
                    Antwerp and
                    Paris;




                    (2) Operational control of all missile production and research, including the V-2 and the intercontinental ballistic missile. the A9/10;



                    (3) Design and construction oversight of the world's "first bombproof underground aircraft and missile factory sites," including sites for the production of jet engines and the Messerschmitt 262;



                    (4) command of the SS Building and Words Division, the department which handled all large construction projects for the Reich, including death camps, "Buna factories," and supply roads for invading German legions in Russia;



                    (5) Design and construction of the world's first underground testing and proving range for missiles;



                    (6) Command, control and coordination of all of the Third Reich's secret weapons research by the war's end.
                    This warped and twisted administrative genius first came to the attention of Himmler and Hitler "with a brilliant hand-colored design for the
                    Auschwitz concentration camp, which he subsequently built. Later he was called in to advice on the modalities for boosting the daily output of its gas chambers from 10,000 to 60,000."


                    All this is to say that not only was Kammler a butcher, but that by the war's end, Hitler had "concentrated more power in Kammler's hands than he had ever entrusted to a single person," bar none. If one were to compare Kammler's position to a similar hypothetical position in the former Soviet Union, such a position would mean that the general who (commanded) the SS-20 rockets in Europe and Asia (the Commander in Chief of Strategic Rocket Forces) would also head research, development, and production of missiles. In addition, he would be in charge of producing all modern aircraft for the Red Air Force and have overall command of the mammoth civil engineering projects or the production centers in
                    Siberia's sub-zero climate. Last, but very much not least, he would lead the national grid of gulags. To match Kammler's position in the SS, the Soviet general holding all these variegated commands would also be third in the KGB pecking order.



                    Indeed, one would have to add to Agoston's list, for such a Soviet general would also have had to be in charge of the coordination of all the most post-nuclear and super secret advanced scientific research and black projects in the entire
                    Soviet Union. It is thus in the person of SS Obergruppenführer Hans Kammler that all the lines meet: the Buna factory and slave labor of the camps, exploited for grizzly medical experimentation and labor in the secret underground laboratories and production facilities, the atom bomb project, and as will be seen in the subsequent parts of this book, even more horrendous and monstrous aircraft and weapons development. If there was a gold mine of information, then it was available in the blueprints and files that were locked in Kammler's vaults, or even more securely in his brain. It is this fact and Kammler's extraordinary dossier that make his post-war fate even more problematical.

                    ................
                    http://www.456fis.org/8-Hans_Kammler.htm

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      .............
                      Agoston had established what no other researcher has managed to before or since. The unique information Agoston had came directly from SS colonel Wilhelm Voss who had become "Kammler's alter ego in the administration of the special projects group." As Kammler was the guy in charge of all the secret weapons operations, Voss was certainly in position to know deep secrets known only to the Nazi elite in the highly compartmentalized military system.

                      Agoston, who worked as an air photo interpreter and foreign correspondent during wartime, "ran into Voss" when he was in Germany to cover the Nuremberg war crimes trials. Voss then took shelter in Agoston's house, where he would tell the reporter everything. From those interviews conducted in 1949, Agoston learned of the deep black projects, the secrecy of which was beyond any other secret military project. This was the "most advanced high-technology research and development center within the Third Reich":

                      While Kammler [in charge of Nazi secret weapons projects] carried out his job to the letter, churning out the rockets and jet aircraft that Hitler hoped would turn the tide against the Allies in the closing weeks of the war, he also set up, unbeknownst to anyone connected with those projects, a top secret research center tasked with the development of follow-on technology, a place where work on "second-generation" secret weapons was already well advanced. What Kammler had established was a "special projects office," a forerunner of the entity that had been run by the bright young colonels of the USAF's stealth program in the 1970s and 1980s; a place of vision, where imagination could run free, unfettered by the restraints of accountability. Exactly the kind of place, in fact, you'd expect to find antigravity technology, if such an impossible thing existed.

                      Voss described the activities of the scientists [in this secret operation] as beyond any technology that had appeared by the end of the war - working on weapon systems that made the V-1 and the V-2 look pedestrian.

                      During the final phase of the war, Kammler was reportedly scheming to make a deal with the Americans, using his advanced weapons and specialists as leverage. By April 18, 1945, Kammler had disappeared without trace. Did Kammler negotiate successfully with the U.S. to realize his escape from justice? The fact that the U.S. official documents had virtually nothing on this central figure in the technological world of the Reich certainly hinted conversely that Kammler was very important to the U.S. and that the latter had something to hide about him.

                      Adding to this suspicion was what Voss said about his interview with the U.S. Counter-Intelligence Corps. When Voss told the agents about Kammler's secret weapons program, he saw that the Americans were not surprised by it and therefore had to conclude that they somehow already had this information. Voss also noted that the agents were simply not interested in finding Kammler. Additionally, it was found that "there were dozens of high-ranking former SS or Party members that had never been called to account. They had simply disappeared. Many of them shared the distinction of having had access to highly advanced technology."


                      Kammler was a ruthless and powerful SS officer who had committed numerous war crimes. Even "Operation Paperclip" would have had great trouble importing him into the United States. It probably could have been done under extreme secrecy, but the operation would have been too risky and extensive to appear manageable to U.S. agents - unless, Kammler had something so spectacular that the Americans just had to have, perhaps some exotic technology developed in one of his top-secret projects.


                      ...............
                      http://www.456fis.org/8-Hans_Kammler.htm
                      Last edited by G David Bock; 23 Sep 18, 00:58.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
                        There's also the interesting case of German submarine, U-234
                        The cargo included technical drawings, examples of the newest electric torpedoes, one crated Me 262 jet aircraft, . . .
                        Before you go posting Wiki articles in full, you might just want to read them carefully for a rationality check, especially where you see the notation "citation needed". Consider trying to stuff a crated Me262 into a submarine hull . . . how are you planning on doing that? I don’t think they would be happy when you start cutting out sections of hull.

                        The whole golly-gee-whiz industry around U-234 spawns this sort of nonsense of airplanes as cargo . . . some web places even claim there were 2 (!) Me 262’s aboard.

                        But what do the guys who study UBoats have to say about it? Well, they say this . . .

                        On 15 April 1945 she left Norway and was en-route to Japan with important cargo (including Me 262 jet fighter drawings and 560 kg of uranium oxide) as well as several high ranking German experts on various technologies, including two Messerschmitt production engineers, plus two Japanese officers returning home from Germany. When Kptlt. Fehler heard the surrender orders he decided to head for the USA and surrender. However, as per tradition, the Japanese men took their own lives via sleeping pills rather than being captured.

                        Me 262 fighter aircraft on board?

                        Update 11 Dec 2012. Despite many rumours to the contrary, U-234 was not carrying any aircraft on board. A great many publications (including uboat.net for a long time) have suggested there were either one Me 262, two Me 262's or even three Messerschmitt aircraft on board, but they are all incorrect.

                        Instead, the cargo comprised three elements. Items for the Japanese Army and Navy, including mercury, optical glass, lead, zinc, steel, brass, thallium, uranium oxide and a very large number of Me 262-related technical drawings, production plans, patterns, forms and templates: considerable quantities of stores and ammunition for the German U-Boats and U-Boat bases that were still operational in the Far East: and several tons of diplomatic mail for the German Embassy in Tokyo.

                        The most significant element of this cargo, which the British and Americans knew about in advance via ULTRA intercepts, were the Me 262 documents which, with the help of the two Messerschmitt engineers, could have enabled the Japanese to set up factories designed to produce up to 500 Me 262s a month within two years. Unfortunately, many authors (and other net sites) have confused aircraft documents with aircraft hardware.

                        See https://www.uboat.net/boats/u234.htm

                        Also see German Technical Aid to Japan from USN ONI re the Me262, pages 140 - 141:
                        ITEM: ME 262
                        INTELLIGENCE: P/W [prisoner of war] technical expert on jet and rocker planes stated that ME 262 (jet) is in construction in Japan. (Source: SHAEF, Frankfort) Also see ME 163.
                        Full drawings of the ME 262 were found on the U-234 at the time of its surrender.
                        A completely reliable source indicates that the details of ME 262 we available to the Japanese in November 1944. Evaluation – A-2.
                        The report goes on to briefly describe the characteristics of the Me 262, you know, speed, engines, armament, gross measurement, that sort.

                        See http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/c.../id/1879/rec/2
                        You can download all 10 parts or just Part 08, which is pages 126 to 150.

                        But, note, the report specifically states: “Full drawings of the ME 262 were found on the U-234 at the time of its surrender.” It DOES NOT state that a crated or otherwise dismantled Me 262 was found aboard the submarine, or two or three.

                        Alternatively, you can look at the US Army MIS production of a like document with the same title. This document addresses the Me 262 in relation to the Japanese on pages 55 to 60, with no mention of actual airframes being shipped, successfully or otherwise by submarine. That entry in its entirety:

                        The ME-262:
                        It was early in 1944 that Japanese representatives in Germany apparently first became aware of German development of the ME-262. While it appears that the Japanese were fully aware of the ME-262, nevertheless their primary interest initially lay in the ME-163. This may have been a result of the features of the ME-163 which made it an aircraft particularly suitable for use in defense of Japan against air attack. Alternatively, however, it may be that Japan believed that success was imminent with its own development of turbo-jet units and of aircraft powered by such units. Documentary evidence indicates that such development had been in progress in the Far East since at least 1941. The Japanese representatives in Germany, however, continued to obtain information about the ME-262, and negotiations for manufacturing rights for the ME-163 were paralleled by similar negotiations in respect to the ME-262 and German turbo-jet units.
                        The 1 April 44 letter from Milch to Göring, referring to Hitler and Göring decisions with regard to German-Japanese collaboration, indicated close Japanese interest in the ME-262 A-l, The letter stated that, in accordance with Hitler's order, descriptions, survey sketches and illustrations of the A-l sub-type already had been turned over to the Japanese. It is believed that those sketches and descriptive material were successfully transported to Japan, arriving there by the fall of 1944.
                        Japanese negotiations for manufacturing rights for the ME-262 and its power unit followed a pattern identical with those for the ME-163. In June 44, the aircraft and industrial manufacturing rights were released to Japan, the delivery, however, being subject to special orders from Göring. During that month, Japanese representatives visited ME-262 production centers, where Bringewald - in charge of ME-262 production in Germany - lectured them on the construction and special features of the aircraft. According to Bringewald, the Japanese showed particular interest in the use of wood for certain parts of the MK-262. In mid-July, Messerschmitt was ordered to prepare sets of traceable drawings and blueprints to be handed over to the Japanese for transportation to the Far East; later in the month Göring approved the handing over to Japan of a sample ME-262. In late August, however, Hitler reversed his original decision and refused the release of a sample ME-262 to Japan. Meantime, preparation and delivery of necessary blueprints and plans proceeded, although delivery to the Japanese continued to be subject to orders from Göring. It was not until October 44 that Hitler released the ME-262. The necessary contract with Messerschmitt for sale to Japan of manufacturing rights finally was signed in December 44.
                        One of Messerschmitt s principal planning engineers has stated that he and four other Messerschmitt employees were the only ones who knew of a plan to transmit to Japan complete technical and production plans for the ME-262. Plans were delivered, in October 44, to Dr. Thunhead of Messerschmitt’s foreign export branch - at Jettingen; a Japanese representative was present on that occasion. According to German Air Ministry records, sample parts and accessories for the ME-262 scheduled for delivery to Japan were still held by Messerschmitt in mid-September 44; their delivery to the Far East, therefore, is very unlikely. This suggests that the only drawings to reach Japan concerning the ME-262 ware the preliminary survey sketches and illustrations of the A-1 sub-type which may have arrived in the fall of 1944.
                        There is evidence that the Japanese Army intended to go into large-scale manufacture of the ME-262. Under terms of the Army’s contract with Messerschmitt, the principal work of von Chlingensperg, a Messerschmitt technician detailed for transfer to Japan, was to be that of directing the design of short-range fighters and long-range bombers at Kawasaki; as far as possible, the Army also desired to have him direct the conversion, presumably of existing aircraft factories, to the manufacture of the ME-262.
                        In late October the Japanese in Berlin advised the Germans that only the Army was planning production of the ME-262 and requested investigation for the Army of two production plans for that aircraft, one for 100 aircraft a month, the other for 500. Meantime, the Japanese were making arrangements for the transfer to Japan of Bringewald, a Messerschmitt technician who was to direct manufacture of the ME-262 in the Far East. At that time it appears that the Army was putting the great set emphasis on the improvement of the ME-262 fuselage and the Jumo-004 propulsion unit. Nevertheless, first of all, attempts were being made rapidly to perfect the ME-163, principally as c means of high altitude defense.
                        It is evident that Japan received little detailed information on the construction of the ME-262. However, German tactical employment and ground organization of ME-262 fighter units were closely studied by Japanese representatives and full information on performance characteristics and tactics was obtained.
                        Bringewald, the Messerschmitt civilian technician, and Ruf, a Messerschmitt expert on procurement of industrial machinery, left for Japan in the U-234 and were captured when that U-boat surrendered to Allied forces. They carried with them blueprints and plans necessary for the setting up in Japan of factories adequate for the production of 500 ME-262's a month. They calculated that it would take at least 1½ years after their arrival before the first ME-262 would come off the production line and that it would require 3,000,000 man-hours to get the factory ready for production. They further stated that two Japanese engineers in Germany had given information that the Japanese were working on a turbo-jet unit but were meeting with continuous difficulties. It was the opinion of Bringewald and Ruf that the Japanese were not capable of building the ME-262 without receiving complete specifications and technical supervision from German specialists. They were convinced that the Japanese did not have sufficient data and information to build the ME-262, since no parts of the aircraft or its propulsion units had been sent to Japan, nor was there in Japan any German specialist who could provide the necessary assistance.
                        It seems possible, however, that the Japanese, if they had been able to develop a turbo-jet unit to the operational stage, might have built an aircraft which, although not a copy of the ME-262, was based on that aircraft. The success or otherwise of such experiments obviously depended on the successful development of a turbo-jet unit. That, in turn, undoubtedly was greatly influenced by the extent of the information available in Japan on the design and construction of German turbo-jet units, on the difficulties encountered by Germany in their development and of the methods by which such difficulties were overcome. While only the Jumo-004 was used in the ME-262, the BMW-003 basically is of similar design, and information available in Japan on either of these turbo-jet units was a potential source of assistance to the Japanese in their own experiments.

                        Note that the report specifically states:
                        Bringewald, the Messerschmitt civilian technician, and Ruf, a Messerschmitt expert on procurement of industrial machinery, left for Japan in the U-234 and were captured when that U-boat surrendered to Allied forces. They carried with them blueprints and plans necessary for the setting up in Japan of factories adequate for the production of 500 ME-262's a month. [ my underlining ]They calculated that it would take at least 1½ years after their arrival before the first ME-262 would come off the production line and that it would require 3,000,000 man-hours to get the factory ready for production.

                        This from the two guys who were being sent to Japan to assist with the program. No. zip, zero, nada, mention of actual aircraft aboard U-234, just a couple of Messerschmitt employees with a lot of paper.

                        See http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/c...8/id/881/rec/1
                        Again, you can download all 5 parts of the report or just the part containing the above, in this case, Part 1


                        hmmm . . . I wonder what THIS button does . . . uh oh

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                        • #27
                          ^ There's the benefit of a Forum like this where one more studied on a topic can present clarification.

                          I was in a late night rush and more focused on the uranium in gold lined containers, so gazed over the "crated aircraft" part. While your sources make clear there was no Me-262 loaded, it wouldn't be impossible, if the aircraft were dismantled into many smaller parts. Having some experience in making and assembling aircraft parts, I can see where there may have been a way to break it down to fit through the torpedo/mine loading hatches. Putting it back together might have been a challenge, among other factors.

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                          • #28
                            Sure they could, as long as no one piece has dimensions no larger than 2 ft x 2 ft x 2 ft. So, what part of their cargo and which passengers do you think should have been bumped for the fantasy. You may have ". . . some experience in making and assembling aircraft parts . . ." but that has nothing to do with wrestling said parts down hatchways and through passageways in a vessel as cramped as a WWII submarine.

                            And of course, the point is they did not . . . "since no parts of the aircraft or its propulsion units had been sent to Japan, nor was there in Japan any German specialist who could provide the necessary assistance." As written in the end of the last paragraph of the MIS report.

                            Since so many people on the internet think the Germans were oh, so, much smarter than everyone else would it not stand to reason that the Germans were probably smart enough to figure out that the entire concept of shipping airplanes by submarine was a non-starter. [ Ha, ha, 'smarter than everyone else,' sure they were; can you say the words "Graf Zeppelin" and "aircraft carrier" without laughing? ]

                            So here we are in 2018 with this nonsense still being propagated on the internet, falling into the general category of "if you repeat it enough times it will eventually be true."
                            Last edited by RLeonard; 23 Sep 18, 20:32.
                            hmmm . . . I wonder what THIS button does . . . uh oh

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by RLeonard View Post
                              Sure they could, as long as no one piece has dimensions no larger than 2 ft x 2 ft x 2 ft. So, what part of their cargo and which passengers do you think should have been bumped for the fantasy. You may have ". . . some experience in making and assembling aircraft parts . . ." but that has nothing to do with wrestling said parts down hatchways and through passageways in a vessel as cramped as a WWII submarine.

                              And of course, the point is they did not . . . "since no parts of the aircraft or its propulsion units had been sent to Japan, nor was there in Japan any German specialist who could provide the necessary assistance." As written in the end of the last paragraph of the MIS report.

                              Since so many people on the internet think the Germans were oh, so, much smarter than everyone else would it not stand to reason that the Germans were probably smart enough to figure out that the entire concept of shipping airplanes by submarine was a non-starter. [ Ha, ha, 'smarter than everyone else,' sure they were; can you say the words "Graf Zeppelin" and "aircraft carrier" without laughing? ]

                              So here we are in 2018 with this nonsense still being propagated on the internet, falling into the general category of "if you repeat it enough times it will eventually be true."
                              Hi Len, I can't seriously imagine anyone accepting such a thing as fact!!!! lcm1
                              'By Horse by Tram'.


                              I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                              " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                                The Germans far moreso than the US ever did.
                                Meaning in context that they operated far more in desperation than the USA (and the Allies).

                                That's a key consideration to keep in mind. Yes, the Me 262 went into combat earlier than the Meteor. The main reason is exactly that consideration: the British were winning the war and could afford the time to work out the Meteor's teething problems, the Germans couldn't afford that time, since they were desperately losing.

                                So boasting about the Germans who fielded the first jet aircraft in combat amounts to boasting that the Allies were defeating the Germans.

                                And the same is true for other such records.

                                ---

                                On a separate note, 3 Panzerfäuste 30 would weigh 33 lbs.; one 2.36" Bazooka and three rounds for it would weigh 26 lbs. 2.5 rounds fired is already the break-even point, when weight is a factor, for the Bazooka.
                                Maybe that's another consideration worth making, when it comes to the question, why didn't the post-war US troops use a US version of the Panzerfaust?


                                Michele

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