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Operation Dragoon, Invasion of Southern France August 15th 1944.

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  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post

    Interesting picture Mr. Twain. Was this a special SS unit, Adolph's Angels perhaps?

    The allies always seemed to be short of LST even with over 1,000 built! They were such a useful ship.
    I believe that the scenario is two Panthers following a ,uhhh, wild cat....

    Kudos to Mr. Baner, who caught the insignia...Often overlooked was the rushed design of the landing ship tank. the first example was LAUNCHED , not yet fitted out) in November 1940. the ships were 'somewhat seaworthy- and could be shuttled to England at a max cruise speed of seven knots....The Mediterrean is a virtually tide free basin, landing sights were 'tricky' - no high tide in low tide unload options

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  • Johan Banér
    replied
    Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post

    Interesting picture Mr. Twain. Was this a special SS unit, Adolph's Angels perhaps?
    Weird, but the lass has a tag reading "B d M", i.e. Bund deutscher Mädel, the equivalent of the Hitler-Jugend, but for the gels.

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  • 17thfabn
    replied
    Originally posted by marktwain View Post

    It is important to realise that the first LCT ws Built in November 1940, and the LST's to carry them were tricky to develop and build.
    NOW that I have your attention, the fleet to cross the channel would always take precident
    Interesting picture Mr. Twain. Was this a special SS unit, Adolph's Angels perhaps?

    The allies always seemed to be short of LST even with over 1,000 built! They were such a useful ship.

    Leave a comment:


  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post


    Only until Autumn/the Fall. Then launch Dragoon.

    With luck 15th Army Group would have been running rampant over the north Italian plain by then.
    It is important to realise that the first LCT ws Built in November 1940, and the LST's to carry them were tricky to develop and build.
    NOW that I have your attention, the fleet to cross the channel would always take precident

    Leave a comment:


  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post

    I wonder if some commanders were leery of another amphibious end run up the Italian Peninsula after the Anzio landings?
    I do believe that a shortage developed of Major Generals WILLING TO BE BLAMED, publically chastised HUNG, DRAWN , AND quartered like General John Lucas -

    Commanders Clark and Alexander should have sent in every functional body and equipment after the landing achieved complete surprise.

    OK, Maybe not Basil Fawllty.........

    ..." I'll have you know I killed four men in Korea...."
    " Yes, that's true, he was in the catering corps...."

    ( Basil and the MISSUS Fauwlty)

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  • 82redleg
    replied
    Originally posted by Merkava188 View Post
    Before Patton got command of the 3rd Army wasn't under consideration to command Operation Dragoon?
    Not that I recall. He'd already been pulled out of the Med to be part of the "Phantom Army" deception in England. And, IIRC, was actually slated for 1st Army and then Army Group, ahead of Bradley, but the incidents in Sicily put the kibbosh on that.

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  • Merkava188
    replied
    Before Patton got command of the 3rd Army wasn't under consideration to command Operation Dragoon?

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  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by MarkV View Post

    That was not the real issue. There was a proposal for an amphibious operation to conduct a landing up in Italy's armpit and push into Austria. This would have out flanked the German defensive positions and Allied forces reaching the Reich would have forced Hitler to draw troops back from the defence of France. However the landing craft and crews necessary were sent to Dragoon
    All things considered- Dragoon made for a solid, if more limited choice.

    I would back Asterix on this call. putting France back on an operational , allied schedule meant capturing the agricultural areas before the Nazi's scorched earthed it.

    By 1945 there were two French army divisions engages on the Western Front, plus many secondary troops masking the German Fortress ports, such as BREST. People forget the
    Gallant French army rebuild in 1944/45.

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  • 17thfabn
    replied
    Originally posted by lcm1 View Post

    There was so many American troops packed into the UK at that time that they were falling off the edges into the 'oggin!! lcm1
    Were they "troops" or air force and remf types?

    I was under the impression that U.S. combat divisions and battalions and coming to the UK after the Normandy landings were just there for a quick stop. Switch from the bigger ships to LST and other troop carriers that can come accross the beach.

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  • lcm1
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post

    The British objection was that Dragoon would take too many troops and squadrons from the Italian theatre - where progress was at that time swift - leading to progress there becoming bogged down again.
    I think they were right 15th Army Group came very close to breaking through the Gothic line but ultimately ran out of troops and good weather.

    There were enough US divisions being sent to Europe - 14 in August and September 1944 - that a later Operation Dragoon could have been viable without denuding Italy of combat forces too much.
    There was so many American troops packed into the UK at that time that they were falling off the edges into the 'oggin!! lcm1

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  • G David Bock
    replied
    Southern France D-Day Before Northern France D-Day

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  • G David Bock
    replied
    Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post
    On August 15th 1944 the Western Allies launched Operation Dragoon, the invasion of Southern France.

    Originally this attack was supposed to be in conjunction with the Normandy Landings on June 6th. But due to lack of resources it was decided that it could not be launched at the same time.

    It seems this operation was very successful. With the German Army preoccupied in Normandy the attack made rapid progress. Perhaps the most important objectives, the ports of Marseille and Toulon were captured within two weeks.

    On the other hand the operation was opposed by British High command as a needless diversion from the Normandy Campaign and the fight into Northern France.
    Alternatively, and in the "alternate" sub-forums, has been some discussion in recent past of "what if" it had been Dragoon in place of Anzio. I'll chase down a thread link later.

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  • 17thfabn
    replied
    I just read "Day of the Panzer". It follows the 15th Regiment 3rd Infantry Division and attached Tank Destroyers and Tanks in the first month of the Southern France Invasion.

    Emphasis is placed on L company. The first part of the invasion went well. Allied units advanced hundreds of miles quickly until lack of supplies and stiffening German resistance slowed the advance.

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  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by 17thfabn View Post

    The U.S. Wasn't going to leave an amphibious force floating around the Mediterranean as a force in waiting. There was the competing claim for these resources in the Pacific.

    Only until Autumn/the Fall. Then launch Dragoon.

    With luck 15th Army Group would have been running rampant over the north Italian plain by then.

    Leave a comment:


  • 17thfabn
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post

    I don't think that prosposal would have got very far, for one that thinking brought 15th Army Group Anzio and for two the Italian adriatic beaches have only very gently sloping beaches whilst the sea was full of mines.

    The best use of an amphibious fleet in the Mediterranean in the Summer of '44 was probably just as an amphibious 'fleet in being'. Keep the Germans guessing about a landing whilst the Allies go hey diddle diddle, straight through the middle.
    The U.S. Wasn't going to leave an amphibious force floating around the Mediterranean as a force in waiting. There was the competing claim for these resources in the Pacific.

    Leave a comment:

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