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All in the Mind? The psychological effect of Tiger Tanks and 88ís

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  • Originally posted by JustAGuy View Post

    Pages 441, 443 - 444 of your source shows the 88mm HE projectile Type L/4.7 used a "mechanical time fuze." It was for use in the Flak 41 and 43 AA guns.
    And?
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    • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

      And?
      I thought air bursts were used against ground targets using mechanical time fuzes.

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      • Originally posted by JustAGuy View Post

        I thought air bursts were used against ground targets using mechanical time fuzes.
        Normally they would be, but it appears limited supplies prohibited their use in this case. Yet another reason why the 88 mm would have been less effective than the standard German 105 and 150 mm artillery.
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        • Originally posted by JustAGuy View Post

          I thought air bursts were used against ground targets using mechanical time fuzes.
          The Allies used air bursts against ground targets using proximity fuses, this was very effective. Germany had several proximity fuse developments each one sponsored by a different Nazi grandee but none quite made it. Using mechanical time fuzes was problematic.
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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          • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
            I have a copy of Zetterling's Normandy 44', which has the equipment status of all German units in the campaign. 88mm would figure distinctly in the minority of the German artillery park. someone else who has the book too could do a count if they are so inclined.
            I have the book, actually took the time to get hold of it, but lacking energy to look for the specific information at present.
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            • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

              I have the book, actually took the time to get hold of it, but lacking energy to look for the specific information at present.
              Yes- I remember that you mentioned that you had it too. It'll take at least 15 minutes with a calculator hah
              Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
              Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
              Barbarossa Derailed I & II
              Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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              • Originally posted by JustAGuy View Post

                Pages 441, 443 - 444 of your source shows the 88mm HE projectile Type L/4.7 used a "mechanical time fuze." It was for use in the Flak 41 and 43 AA guns.
                I wasn't aware of a FlaK 43 model. The FlaK 41's production run was limited and late. So this would in and by itself restrict the use of time fuzes by "88s" - I put that in quotes because at this point one should take into account that there were significant differences in the various models. Apparently, these fuzes would not be used by earlier, more widespread AA 88s (the FlaK 18, 36 and 37), and they would obviously not be supplied to batteries of AT 88s (PaK 43, 43/41).
                And that is not taking into account the production shortage of these more complex fuzes.
                Michele

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                • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                  Again, I can find no reason why an 88 mm HE (2.25 Ibs p442) would be more feared than a 105 mm (3 Ibs p471) or an even more massive 150 mm artillery rounds.
                  Just above you, Nick. R. Bacon of the Calgary Highlanders.
                  "Please give your view of the main reason for the adverse moral effectiveness of the three weapons you have marked

                  88mm anti-tank guns effective because They are used on personnel - you cannot hear it coming - is so accurate

                  http://www.calgaryhighlanders.com/hi...queslbacon.htm

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                  • Originally posted by Gooner View Post

                    Just above you, Nick. R. Bacon of the Calgary Highlanders.
                    "Please give your view of the main reason for the adverse moral effectiveness of the three weapons you have marked

                    88mm anti-tank guns effective because They are used on personnel - you cannot hear it coming - is so accurate

                    http://www.calgaryhighlanders.com/hi...queslbacon.htm
                    Yet the round has an impact fuse, thus far less effective than a much larger 105 mm or 150 mm round, fired more often, and with air burst effect.

                    The 88mm is a catch all for all heavier German guns from my readings, much like the Tiger for tanks, or Spandau's for mg's.
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                    • Originally posted by Michele View Post

                      I wasn't aware of a FlaK 43 model. The FlaK 41's production run was limited and late. So this would in and by itself restrict the use of time fuzes by "88s" - I put that in quotes because at this point one should take into account that there were significant differences in the various models. Apparently, these fuzes would not be used by earlier, more widespread AA 88s (the FlaK 18, 36 and 37), and they would obviously not be supplied to batteries of AT 88s (PaK 43, 43/41).
                      And that is not taking into account the production shortage of these more complex fuzes.
                      You are correct. I corrected my previous post. (This is all new to me. If I made a mistake would someone please let me know.)

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                      • Originally posted by Michele View Post

                        I wasn't aware of a FlaK 43 model. The FlaK 41's production run was limited and late. So this would in and by itself restrict the use of time fuzes by "88s" - I put that in quotes because at this point one should take into account that there were significant differences in the various models. Apparently, these fuzes would not be used by earlier, more widespread AA 88s (the FlaK 18, 36 and 37), and they would obviously not be supplied to batteries of AT 88s (PaK 43, 43/41).
                        And that is not taking into account the production shortage of these more complex fuses.
                        Production shortage? I would have thought there would have been plenty of mechanical time fuses because of the threat of Allied aircraft. What were they using instead?

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                        • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

                          Yet the round has an impact fuse, thus far less effective than a much larger 105 mm or 150 mm round, fired more often, and with air burst effect.

                          The 88mm is a catch all for all heavier German guns from my readings, much like the Tiger for tanks, or Spandau's for mg's.
                          Nick, I know what an 88 looks like, I know what they sound like, we over ran 3 88s that had been firing on our area with ground bursts (timed to explode just above ground level ) the reason we over ran them was they had run out of ammunition and scarpered leaving their guns. A common problem they had at that stage of the war. lcm1
                          'By Horse by Tram'.


                          I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                          " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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                          • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post

                            Nick, I know what an 88 looks like, I know what they sound like, we over ran 3 88s that had been firing on our area with ground bursts (timed to explode just above ground level ) the reason we over ran them was they had run out of ammunition and scarpered leaving their guns. A common problem they had at that stage of the war. lcm1
                            Just found a similar incident in which an M7 105mm How SP was knocked out by an 88 using airbursts.

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                            • Now that's interesting, I know I should read more got a stack of good books relating to WW2. I blame this form of obtaining knowledge for making me lazy about reading!! lcm1
                              'By Horse by Tram'.


                              I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                              " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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                              • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post

                                Nick, I know what an 88 looks like, I know what they sound like, we over ran 3 88s that had been firing on our area with ground bursts (timed to explode just above ground level ) the reason we over ran them was they had run out of ammunition and scarpered leaving their guns. A common problem they had at that stage of the war. lcm1
                                Please can you remember any details where your 33rd RM Battalion, 117th RM brigade, was fighting at the time?
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