Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

All in the Mind? The psychological effect of Tiger Tanks and 88s

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    There is an old saying - probably from the Russian
    The ant does not worry what kind of leather the shoe is made of
    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

    Comment


    • #47
      After the Salerno Landings British forces came under fire from 88s used in the conventional artillery indirect fire role. The British were firing back using 25 pounders. Later an analysis was made to compare the effectiveness of the two weapons. Things like casualty/rounds fired ratios etc were examined but also men who had been on the receiving end were interviewed. Years later the report was released into the public domain and I've read it. In essence the 25 pounder way physically more effective in the conventional artillery role (which is not surprising as that's what it was designed for) but the 88 had a greater psychological effect because of the noise that incoming rounds made.

      Noise is obviously an effective weapon which is why the Ju 87 was fitted with sirens
      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by MarkV View Post
        After the Salerno Landings British forces came under fire from 88s used in the conventional artillery indirect fire role. The British were firing back using 25 pounders. Later an analysis was made to compare the effectiveness of the two weapons. Things like casualty/rounds fired ratios etc were examined but also men who had been on the receiving end were interviewed. Years later the report was released into the public domain and I've read it. In essence the 25 pounder way physically more effective in the conventional artillery role (which is not surprising as that's what it was designed for) but the 88 had a greater psychological effect because of the noise that incoming rounds made.

        Noise is obviously an effective weapon which is why the Ju 87 was fitted with sirens

        Wouldn't the 88 rounds be supersonic? The 25-pdr shells might be too at a short range.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Gooner View Post


          Wouldn't the 88 rounds be supersonic? The 25-pdr shells might be too at a short range.
          Not it seems in an indirect fire role
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

          Comment


          • #50
            There were only a few hundred German tanks and AG on the Western front from Sept 1944- Nov 1944- compared to the Allies in the West it was an exponential numerical inferiority. There was an uptick in German armor for the Ardennes offensive and then they were transferred east again in Jan 1945. This 10 times, 15 times etc. inferiority was not a trait of the Eastern Front.

            The Waffen SS panzer divisions and a few Army panzer divisions like 2nd Panzer, Panzer Lehr were pulled out of the frontline to retrain and refit.

            Outside of the failed panzer brigades at Arracourt (which were then rolled into the panzer divisions as reinforcements),

            There were only about 4 or so panzer divisions on the Western Front for the most part (9.Panzer, 116.Panzer, 21st Panzer, 116th Panzer) with Lehr making an appearance just before the Ardennes offensive.

            There were brigade sized groups, not really divisions.

            This is a controversial and neglected aspect. The Germans retained the ability to defend the Western Front with scratch armored forces. Their offensive capability was weak but their ability to provide strong Anti-tank defense by shifting armor around and blocking allied units remained.
            Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
            Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
            Barbarossa Derailed I & II
            Battle of Kalinin October 1941

            Comment


            • #51
              good thread. One of the reasons I keep coming.....

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                After the Salerno Landings British forces came under fire from 88s used in the conventional artillery indirect fire role. The British were firing back using 25 pounders. Later an analysis was made to compare the effectiveness of the two weapons. Things like casualty/rounds fired ratios etc were examined but also men who had been on the receiving end were interviewed. Years later the report was released into the public domain and I've read it. In essence the 25 pounder way physically more effective in the conventional artillery role (which is not surprising as that's what it was designed for) but the 88 had a greater psychological effect because of the noise that incoming rounds made.

                Noise is obviously an effective weapon which is why the Ju 87 was fitted with sirens
                Believe me, the sound of incoming 88 shells is something that is hard to explain.Particularly with good crews on the German end, it could be an unbroken shriek. lcm1
                'By Horse by Tram'.


                I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                Comment


                • #53
                  An old friend of mine saw two Tiger tanks in Italy, he was in an observation post and saw them through his binoculars. The Tigers were manoeuvring in a hilltop village. I asked him what one looked like, expecting all the 'Kelly's Heroes' type answers, he said...

                  "Looked like two blokes running carrying a pair of ladders with a great bush on it."

                  He went on to explain that the blokes were the front and back bogies and the ladder rungs the road wheels going round. In those days I was a Mick Kenny and knew everything about Tigers, so I told him that, in fact, they could have been any Jerry tanks and most likely not Tigers.





                  The long toll of the brave
                  Is not lost in darkness
                  Over the fruitful earth
                  And athwart the seas
                  Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                  Unquenchable forever.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                    After the Salerno Landings British forces came under fire from 88s used in the conventional artillery indirect fire role. The British were firing back using 25 pounders. Later an analysis was made to compare the effectiveness of the two weapons. Things like casualty/rounds fired ratios etc were examined but also men who had been on the receiving end were interviewed. Years later the report was released into the public domain and I've read it. In essence the 25 pounder way physically more effective in the conventional artillery role (which is not surprising as that's what it was designed for) but the 88 had a greater psychological effect because of the noise that incoming rounds made.

                    Noise is obviously an effective weapon which is why the Ju 87 was fitted with sirens
                    Noise is an effective weapon. The cacophonic effect of 25pdrs was one reason the CW preferred these weapons over the US 105mm.
                    How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                    Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

                      Noise is an effective weapon. The cacophonic effect of 25pdrs was one reason the CW preferred these weapons over the US 105mm.
                      Stupid question....... What is a CW? For that matter someone above mentions having been a Mick Kenny.... Who or what is a Mick Kenny? Sorry for asking, but I seem to be missing some of the context of an otherwise interesting discussion.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        CW=British Commonwealth, I presume.
                        Wisdom is personal

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Yes, that is what I assumed, a very abbreviated abbreviation.
                          'By Horse by Tram'.


                          I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                          " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by G David Bock View Post

                            Actually, when I place my scale models, either 1/72-1/76 or 1/35 beside each other, the "cats" like the (MK. VI)Tiger I and the basic M4 Sherman, the Tiger only looks about 20-30% larger.

                            Now imagine such out about 2-300 yards/meters and size could look close to a MK. V Panther or an Mk. IVH with side armor plates, especially if they have assorted 'brush' attached for camouflage to blend with nearby terrain.

                            In the few seconds where one might either be a target and/or hit; or do the targeting and hit the other guy, hasty qualifications might be secondary. "Tiger" could just be generic for a Jerry tank and shoot! ... or scoot.
                            In real life and up close, there is no doubt which tank looks more dangerous. Bigger looks better, and Cats can be more than twice the weight of a IV or Sherman.

                            Furthermore, I believe you may be ignoring both the IQ and experience of the PBI after a few weeks of combat. While a small proportion of veterans might possibly not know the difference between a 25 ton Mk IV, and a 70 ton Tiger 2, most would.

                            There is no evidence that the Cats ever had any real effect on the outcome of WW2, bar make it end a bit sooner.
                            How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                            Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Being an ex PBI, I am a little indignant at the insinuations of our mental capacity when in close contact with the enemy armour. My remarks dwelled on the fact that if they had a black Cross on ' em they were jerries and were treated as such, what brand they were was not immediately of any great importance. lcm1
                              'By Horse by Tram'.


                              I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                              " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                                Being an ex PBI, I am a little indignant at the insinuations of our mental capacity when in close contact with the enemy armour. My remarks dwelled on the fact that if they had a black Cross on ' em they were jerries and were treated as such, what brand they were was not immediately of any great importance. lcm1
                                My respects sir.!!!

                                If I may ask.... What on earth is a PBI? Best I can come up with is Peanut Butter -- something, but I am sure that's wrong.

                                Comment

                                Latest Topics

                                Collapse

                                Working...
                                X