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All in the Mind? The psychological effect of Tiger Tanks and 88’s

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  • Ah, come on Nick, I have not just fallen out of a tree, you are just dying to have me commit myself so that you can run to your little books and find a black hole in my statements. You are not the first as any long term member of this Forum can tell you. But, I will tell you this much, as your little books will tell you the 33rd Btn was the first Btn to be ready for service after being re grouped following D Day. They came into their overseas service again in early 1945. All this you will find in your little books! What you will not find is they sent an advance Company in late December 1944 into Belgium to see what the situation was like for the battalion to participate. I was a member of that company serving as a infantryman come Medic S.B. As you know the front was very fluid at that time and we found that we became involved in several scraps, deliberately, because that is what we were there to find out. How's that then mate, good enough for you?? lcm1
    'By Horse by Tram'.


    I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
    " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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    • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
      Ah, come on Nick, I have not just fallen out of a tree, you are just dying to have me commit myself so that you can run to your little books and find a black hole in my statements. You are not the first as any long term member of this Forum can tell you. But, I will tell you this much, as your little books will tell you the 33rd Btn was the first Btn to be ready for service after being re grouped following D Day. They came into their overseas service again in early 1945. All this you will find in your little books! What you will not find is they sent an advance Company in late December 1944 into Belgium to see what the situation was like for the battalion to participate. I was a member of that company serving as a infantryman come Medic S.B. As you know the front was very fluid at that time and we found that we became involved in several scraps, deliberately, because that is what we were there to find out. How's that then mate, good enough for you?? lcm1
      Respect!

      Comment


      • Thank you JAG. lcm1
        'By Horse by Tram'.


        I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
        " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
          Ah, come on Nick, I have not just fallen out of a tree, you are just dying to have me commit myself so that you can run to your little books and find a black hole in my statements. You are not the first as any long term member of this Forum can tell you. But, I will tell you this much, as your little books will tell you the 33rd Btn was the first Btn to be ready for service after being re grouped following D Day. They came into their overseas service again in early 1945. All this you will find in your little books! What you will not find is they sent an advance Company in late December 1944 into Belgium to see what the situation was like for the battalion to participate. I was a member of that company serving as a infantryman come Medic S.B. As you know the front was very fluid at that time and we found that we became involved in several scraps, deliberately, because that is what we were there to find out. How's that then mate, good enough for you?? lcm1
          I was the one that found out that the 33rd suffered a KIA in April 1945 when all the official documentation stated that your unit did not reach Germany until May 45 after the conflict. While a single KIA proves that 88mm's are all bark and almost no bite at best, why have you never mentioned said individual. The single KIA would have stood out, and honoured.

          OTOH, thank you for your service on 6.6.44.
          How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
          Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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          • I was completely unaware of the incident that is not so remarkable at such times and to connect the 88 to it was the height of stupidity. Whoever the man was he was not of my company. I thought I had explained the 33rds activities fairly clearly, the destination of the 33rd was Kiel to take part in the occupation particularly the docks etc: We were in a Dakota heading for Kiel when the radio operator came back to us and said 'The war is over' and even that was a ball up it did not end until 24 hours later. Finally a bit of advice, take every bit of so called official documents you have ever read with a 'Pinch of salt' somewhere down the line their was someone that was doing a little bit of adapting to make it look better. lcm1
            'By Horse by Tram'.


            I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
            " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
              While a single KIA proves that 88mm's are all bark and almost no bite at best, ....
              It does?

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              • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                While a single KIA proves that 88mm's are all bark and almost no bite at best, ....
                After a few hours of thought, I decided there is no connection between the KIA and the 88's effectiveness.

                Why do think there is?

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                • Exactly, if the bloke did die at that time, it could have been in any manner! There were two casualties when we were in Belgium neither of them fatal. They were what in WW1 they called 'Blighty wounds' and that was about it. Don't know the other bloke at all. Our company were the only ones that saw any face to face action out of the 33rd and we were used by the army as support if needed. lcm1
                  'By Horse by Tram'.


                  I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                  " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JustAGuy View Post

                    After a few hours of thought, I decided there is no connection between the KIA and the 88's effectiveness.

                    Why do think there is?
                    There was only one KIA in the 33rd. Veterans remember the dead who fought by their side. Battalions are relatively small and like families, as if anyone who served would know. The first KIA name would be honoured, simply by being the first. LCM1 obviously knows the individual involved, especially since it was there only true casualty.

                    The fact that a battalion was in combat, only had one KIA, and thought 88mm's were lethal, means 88 mm's were almost all bark. The amount of fire they contributed was relatively unimportant next to 105mm and 150mm weapon systems in killing our guys.
                    How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                    Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                    • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

                      There was only one KIA in the 33rd. Veterans remember the dead who fought by their side. Battalions are relatively small and like families, as if anyone who served would know. The first KIA name would be honoured, simply by being the first. LCM1 obviously knows the individual involved, especially since it was there only true casualty.

                      The fact that a battalion was in combat, only had one KIA, and thought 88mm's were lethal, means 88 mm's were almost all bark. The amount of fire they contributed was relatively unimportant next to 105mm and 150mm weapon systems in killing our guys.
                      1. What an odd claim. I think the man said he did not know the soldier who was killed in action. Do you have proof to the contrary? If so, please produce it.

                      2. The amount of fire by 88mm's relative to other artillery weapons does not disprove its lethality. Can you provide proof the 88mm was not lethal when used against our troops? For example, I don't think anyone was killed in the destruction of the M7 I posted about previously. However, it is a safe bet the crewmen thought the 88mm was damned lethal.

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                      • how could veterans distinguish between 88mm , 105mm, 150mm, mortars, infantry guns, super heavy, and the polygot of captured artillery pieces (Soviet, French, Czech, etc.) that equipped german forces in normandy?

                        88mm units were used primarily as AA defense

                        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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                        • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                          how could veterans distinguish between 88mm , 105mm, 150mm, mortars, infantry guns, super heavy, and the polygot of captured artillery pieces (Soviet, French, Czech, etc.) that equipped german forces in normandy?

                          88mm units were used primarily as AA defense
                          88 shells had a different sound in flight than artillery rounds. Troops generally couldn't differentiate between artillery shells but could tell the higher velocity 88 shells apart. They could also tell the difference between mortar rounds and artillery. Very often they could hear the "thump" of mortars being fired too. They could tell the difference between Allied machineguns and the higher rate of fire German ones too.

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                          • Originally posted by JustAGuy View Post

                            1. What an odd claim. I think the man said he did not know the soldier who was killed in action. Do you have proof to the contrary? If so, please produce it.

                            2. The amount of fire by 88mm's relative to other artillery weapons does not disprove its lethality. Can you provide proof the 88mm was not lethal when used against our troops? For example, I don't think anyone was killed in the destruction of the M7 I posted about previously. However, it is a safe bet the crewmen thought the 88mm was damned lethal.
                            1. Officially the 33rd RM unit did not appear in Germany until May 45, so the KIA in April 45 is a mistake?

                            2. 88mm's were relatively rare compared with standard 105 and 150 mm weapons. 105 and 150 were as accurate as 88 weapons, more lethal and more common.

                            3. 88mm's were considered dangerous against the Matilda 2. It was the one weapon that could always combat said tank.

                            88's are Nazi myth when it comes to true capability.
                            How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                            Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                            • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

                              1. Officially the 33rd RM unit did not appear in Germany until May 45, so the KIA in April 45 is a mistake?

                              2. 88mm's were relatively rare compared with standard 105 and 150 mm weapons. 105 and 150 were as accurate as 88 weapons, more lethal and more common.

                              3. 88mm's were considered dangerous against the Matilda 2. It was the one weapon that could always combat said tank.

                              88's are Nazi myth when it comes to true capability.
                              The solider killed in action is not at question here.
                              The lethality of other weapons is not at question here.
                              The relative numbers of artillery weapons are not at question here.

                              Again, I must ask for proof, not opinion.

                              Comment


                              • the overwhelming majority of troops that landed in Normandy did not have combat experience with either 88mms or Tigers....
                                Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                                Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                                Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                                Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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