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What was the best aircraft engine of the war?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by EKB View Post


    World War II combat aircraft were disposable and not built to last. The civilian aircraft market was a better test for engine life, safety and reliability.

    Aero engine sales to passenger and air freight lines shows that the Rolls Royce Merlin and Griffon were not successful commercially. Liquid cooled engines did not last as long as air cooled types. Gaskets, radiators, hoses, connections, etc. were prone to leaks. Besides the obvious safety hazard to passengers and cargo, the maintenance requirements of liquid cooling was considered excessive by most of the long-haul air carriers.
    What the hell has that got to do with "What was the best aircraft engine of the war?" You post nonsence, I suppose you wouldn't fly in the face of public opinion so I can see why it was only natural that you post more.


    Paul
    ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
    All human ills he can subdue,
    Or with a bauble or medal
    Can win mans heart for you;
    And many a blessing know to stew
    To make a megloamaniac bright;
    Give honour to the dainty Corse,
    The Pixie is a little shite.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
      You post nonsence
      You can't even spell the word correctly.

      Comment


      • #48
        Terribly sorry old bean! But i suppose you needed something to come back at me with, something other than the stuff you post.

        If you wish to be a spelling Czar, I suggest you go through everyone's latest posts and archived posts (including your own) to make sure they are up to speed. Be sure to let them know won't you?
        ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
        All human ills he can subdue,
        Or with a bauble or medal
        Can win mans heart for you;
        And many a blessing know to stew
        To make a megloamaniac bright;
        Give honour to the dainty Corse,
        The Pixie is a little shite.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by EKB View Post


          World War II combat aircraft were disposable and not built to last. The civilian aircraft market was a better test for engine life, safety and reliability.

          Aero engine sales to passenger and air freight lines shows that the Rolls Royce Merlin and Griffon were not successful commercially. Liquid cooled engines did not last as long as air cooled types. Gaskets, radiators, hoses, connections, etc. were prone to leaks. Besides the obvious safety hazard to passengers and cargo, the maintenance requirements of liquid cooling was considered excessive by most of the long-haul air carriers.
          And, surprise-surprise, Rolls Royce modified the Merlin engine for civilian flight:
          Avro Lancastrian - 91, retired 1960
          Avro York - 259, retired 1964
          Canadair North Star - 71, 1975
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Merlin

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Gooner View Post

            And, surprise-surprise, Rolls Royce modified the Merlin engine for civilian flight:
            Avro Lancastrian - 91, retired 1960
            Avro York - 259, retired 1964
            Canadair North Star - 71, 1975
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Merlin
            The above numbers(you have omitted the Merlin powered Avro Tudor - 38 made) representing the majority of during and post war Merlin powered transport/commercial aircraft(to which needs to be added relatively small numbers of Griffon powered Avro Shackeltons)(there will be other aircraft in small numbers that I have not mentioned in detail like the Centaurus radial powered iterations )are dwarfed by just the Douglas DC-4(over 1.000 made).....let alone the DC6, DC7, Globemaster series of military transports, early post war Boeing commercial airliners(Stratocruiser), Boeing B50, KC97, Convair CV240(like the one that crashed a few weeks ago in South Africa) and follow on series, Convair B36 bomber, Martin twin engine passenger landplanes and flying boats, Lockheed Super Constellation & Neptune, Grumman Tracker, Fairchild Flying Boxcar(1,183 made of this model aircraft alone).....the US list goes on.....and on.....and on.....all air cooled radials.

            The longer I stay awake thinking about the more significant US aircraft post war types that used air cooled radials, the more that spring to mind.

            Of course, Gt. Britain was right to concentrate her energies mostly on the future which was gas turbines(both pure jet and turboprop), but the writing was on the wall that the days of the smaller capacity, more highly stressed(as opposed to lower stressed larger capacity radials) piston engines were largely over, and were not seen as competitive by those outside of the preferential and parochial Empire market.

            Regardless, from the above numbers, it is clear that post ww2, the liquid cooled inline engine had very limited appeal outside a high performance combat/military aircraft context.
            Last edited by At ease; 14 Aug 18, 11:59.
            "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
            "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

            "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
            — Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

            Comment


            • #51
              Add that RR wanted a greatly increased licensing fee from Packard for the them to continue to produce the Merlin. It was so much more than during the war Packard halted production almost immediately and the USAAF / USAF went to Allison engines instead for the few new piston engine aircraft using a liquid cooled engine they put in service post war.

              Comment


              • #52
                The Daimler-Benz sounds like a well crafted sewing machine.
                 
                My worst jump story:
                My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                No lie.

                ~
                "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by At ease View Post

                  The above numbers(you have omitted the Merlin powered Avro Tudor - 38 made) representing the majority of during and post war Merlin powered transport/commercial aircraft(to which needs to be added relatively small numbers of Griffon powered Avro Shackeltons)(there will be other aircraft in small numbers that I have not mentioned in detail like the Centaurus radial powered iterations )are dwarfed by just the Douglas DC-4(over 1.000 made).....let alone the DC6, DC7, Globemaster series of military transports, early post war Boeing commercial airliners(Stratocruiser), Boeing B50, KC97, Convair CV240(like the one that crashed a few weeks ago in South Africa) and follow on series, Convair B36 bomber, Martin twin engine passenger landplanes and flying boats, Lockheed Super Constellation & Neptune, Grumman Tracker, Fairchild Flying Boxcar(1,183 made of this model aircraft alone).....the US list goes on.....and on.....and on.....all air cooled radials.

                  The longer I stay awake thinking about the more significant US aircraft post war types that used air cooled radials, the more that spring to mind.

                  Of course, Gt. Britain was right to concentrate her energies mostly on the future which was gas turbines(both pure jet and turboprop), but the writing was on the wall that the days of the smaller capacity, more highly stressed(as opposed to lower stressed larger capacity radials) piston engines were largely over, and were not seen as competitive by those outside of the preferential and parochial Empire market.

                  Regardless, from the above numbers, it is clear that post ww2, the liquid cooled inline engine had very limited appeal outside a high performance combat/military aircraft context.

                  Careful! You will have the EKB spelling Czar after you, especially if you post mistakes similar as this on the 30 Dec 2012, 03:59

                  "Somehow, I don't think this is/was an Auswitch survivor."

                  Paul

                  Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 14 Aug 18, 19:43.
                  ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                  All human ills he can subdue,
                  Or with a bauble or medal
                  Can win mans heart for you;
                  And many a blessing know to stew
                  To make a megloamaniac bright;
                  Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                  The Pixie is a little shite.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                    Terribly sorry old bean! But i suppose you needed something to come back at me with, something other than the stuff you post.

                    USAAF maintenance survey of 11,000 aero engines, covering eight types, —showed that the V-1650 (Packard Merlin) finished last in average engine life.

                    TBO compare USAAF.png
                    Last edited by EKB; 14 Aug 18, 20:15.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by EKB View Post


                      USAAF maintenance survey of 11,000 aero engines, covering eight types, —showed that the V-1650 (Packard Merlin) finished last in average engine life.

                      TBO compare USAAF.png
                      Which counts as more rubbish posting. It ain't what the power-pack did on the bench, it's what it did on powering high performance fighters on operations that counts. I suggest you flag that up, which after all, is all that mattered. Overhauling didn't in any way compromise the use of the power-pack in combat. I'm sure the US would have decided to discontinue with the Merlin in 1943 after realising how 'supposedly' crap it was to maintain.

                      It must have taken you ages to find that 'report'. Never mind!
                      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                      All human ills he can subdue,
                      Or with a bauble or medal
                      Can win mans heart for you;
                      And many a blessing know to stew
                      To make a megloamaniac bright;
                      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                      The Pixie is a little shite.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post

                        Which counts as more rubbish posting. It ain't what the power-pack did on the bench, it's what it did on powering high performance fighters on operations that counts. I suggest you flag that up, which after all, is all that mattered. Overhauling didn't in any way compromise the use of the power-pack in combat. I'm sure the US would have decided to discontinue with the Merlin in 1943 after realising how 'supposedly' crap it was to maintain.

                        It must have taken you ages to find that 'report'. Never mind!

                        Your latest response is proof that desperation is the soup of the day.
                        Last edited by EKB; 15 Aug 18, 20:37.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post

                          Which counts as more rubbish posting. It ain't what the power-pack did on the bench, it's what it did on powering high performance fighters on operations that counts. I suggest you flag that up, which after all, is all that mattered. Overhauling didn't in any way compromise the use of the power-pack in combat. I'm sure the US would have decided to discontinue with the Merlin in 1943 after realising how 'supposedly' crap it was to maintain.

                          It must have taken you ages to find that 'report'. Never mind!
                          The US dropped Merlin production almost immediately after WW 2 ended. This was on a combination of reasons:

                          1. RR wanted large royalty payments to continue production.
                          2. Allison had finally come up with a intermediate second stage supercharger (the -111 and on) that gave the V1710 high altitude performance.
                          3. Jet engines were the future, and the USAAF / USAF recognized that piston engines were doomed to obsolete status.
                          4. There were other piston engines that met the needs of the USAAF that could substitute for the Merlin.

                          It is interesting to note as P-40F and L (Merlin engine) aircraft engines wore out they were replaced with Allisons due to the inability to effectively overhaul the Merlin and the non-availability of replacements. So, many P-40F and L became defacto P-40K as a result. in the MTO.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            The RAAF did not have a happy experience flying the Spitfire VC with Merlin 46 engine and tropical cooling system. The somewhat ineffective Vokes air cleaner was mandatory equipment due to the updraft carburetor:

                            “ " All of the Spitfires had been delivered to the RAAF brand-new, therefore with virtually ‘zero-timed’ engines and airframes. Despite this, the evidence of deteriorating engine performance was plain to see. Indeed, 452 Squadron reported that aircraft could no longer be considered serviceable after 120 hours’ flying in the NWA. No. 54 Squadron agreed, reporting that engines were worn out prematurely after six months of scrambles and battle climbs to 30 000 feet.

                            Indeed, through June–-July, both 7 RSU and 14 ARD found themselves dealing with a succession of aircraft sent from the squadrons prematurely for engine changes – engine condition was by now so bad that the squadrons could not wait for the scheduled 240 hourly overhauls. The high revs and high boost of operational scrambles brought out the worst in the Spitfires’ power plant, such that any operational scramble was now likely to produce a tithe of damaged and written-off aircraft.

                            The dusty conditions of the NWA’s airfields produced accelerated engine wear because of the carburettors’ ingestion of dust into the cylinders during taxiing and take-offs, and so by June the pilots were running as big a risk from simply flying their aircraft in operational conditions as they were from fighting the Japanese – as the next combat would emphatically show. This dire mechanical peril was summed up by what had happened to Flying Officer Ross Williams when 452 scrambled after an incoming plot on 23 June: flying one of the oldest aircraft in service (AR510 QY-B), his engine suffered an internal glycol leak mid-climb at 10 000 feet, with things deteriorating so rapidly that the engine burst into flames only 30 seconds later.”"


                            –––––––––––
                            Anthony Cooper. Darwin Spitfires: The Real Battle For Australia.
                            NewSouth Publishing, 2011. (p.324-325)

                            ***

                            The RAF was clearly more satisfied with the Allison V-1710-C15 engine in the Curtiss Tomahawk, which did not require a tropical chin intake or special cooling system for desert operations. The air cleaner was not needed either, thanks to the downdraft carburetor:

                            “ " In a letter from Air Vice Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Cairo dated June 25, 1941 states that:

                            •The first Allison engine in 250 Squadron has now reached 120 hours. It is running perfectly, and we have felt justified in raising the life to 180 hours.

                            •The general performance of the Allison has been satisfactory. No air cleaners are fitted, and no extra cooling for these conditions. Serviceability of the Squadron is 15 (out of sixteen) this morning.

                            •In comparison with our own trials and troubles in the development of our engines, this is a most creditable achievement.”"


                            –––––––––––
                            Daniel Whitney. Vees For Victory: The Story of the Allison V-1710 Aircraft Engine 1929-1948. Schiffer Publishing, 1998 (p.223)
                            Last edited by EKB; 16 Aug 18, 12:06.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I refer you both to my last. You can also refer yourselves to what happened historically instead of in your heads.

                              Would the P40 outclass the 109F & G in the med? Would the P40 have wrested air superiority over Malta? The Spitfire VC and Mk IX's were needed in the theatre to counter the German initial superiority. The P40 was a good fighter-bomber in the Med. It wasn't a good fighter in the Med

                              Perhaps the US should have stuck with P38's and P47's to protect the bombers and do PR work. Improved the P51 with the Allison or even the P&W. How about re-equipping the Lancaster and Mosquito to Allison's too? Why oh why didn't the allies realise that they were equipping all their top war-planes with an inferior engine. The luftwaffe fanbois must be scratching their heads.

                              The Commonwealth and other allied air-forces seem to have 'coped' with the RR Merlin/Griffon, Shame the USAAF (Merlin) did too.

                              EKB:
                              Your latest response is proof that desperation is the soup of the day
                              You should be dipping your bread into Cream of Reality soup.
                              ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                              All human ills he can subdue,
                              Or with a bauble or medal
                              Can win mans heart for you;
                              And many a blessing know to stew
                              To make a megloamaniac bright;
                              Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                              The Pixie is a little shite.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Had Allison been tasked with and added a second stage to their V1710 engine earlier in the war than they did, the whole argument might be moot. A V1710 that has good altitude performance like the very late ones such as the -111, pretty much match the Merlin in performance.

                                As I pointed out, two models of the P-40, the F and K, got the Merlin engine and were shipped to the MTO. The only thing the Merlin did in terms of performance for the P-40 was raise the critical altitude from 15,000 feet to 25,000 feet. The plane's speed remained almost exactly the same.

                                In the case of the Mustang, North American modified the plane itself using new NACA data. That was where most of the massive increase in performance came from, not the engine swap. Rolls Royce did some engine swaps at the same time that didn't use those shifts in airframe design and go basically a P-51 that performed about equally to the P-51A / A-36 but had a higher critical altitude like the P-40.

                                The RR Merlin 65 installation in a P-51A / Mustang X



                                The Allison wasn't "inferior." It had one serious flaw, and that was it came with a single stage supercharger. Allison simply was not pressed to fix that issue until late in the war. Why? No idea. But, it could have been addressed earlier than it was I'm sure.

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