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Hitler's Ukrainians

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  • Hitler's Ukrainians

    I'm interested in finding out how many Ukrainians fought for the Germans in WWII. !4th SS Galizen, Battalion Nachtigall, and any and all military or paramilitary units whether they actually deployed or not.

    Someone on another forum argue against me that 14th SS were ethnic Germans. I argued that the bulk must have been ethnic Ukrainians since 14th SS was formed in 1943 and Stalin had already deported the ethnic Germans to Central Asia by September 1941.
    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

    Prayers.

    BoRG

    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

  • #2
    I was under the impression that the Ukrainians had an Independence Army as well. It could and did fight against the Germans or Red Army. Many Ukrainians enlisted in the 14th SS and deserted back to the Independence Army after they were armed and trained. Once the Red Army rolled through the Ukraine many hid their arms and went underground. The Red Army and NKVD troops were fighting in the Ukraine until what, the mid 1950's?

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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    • #3
      I have the unit history V1 and V2 in digital format.

      I'll check later.
      Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
      Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
      Barbarossa Derailed I & II
      Battle of Kalinin October 1941

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
        I was under the impression that the Ukrainians had an Independence Army as well. It could and did fight against the Germans or Red Army. Many Ukrainians enlisted in the 14th SS and deserted back to the Independence Army after they were armed and trained. Once the Red Army rolled through the Ukraine many hid their arms and went underground. The Red Army and NKVD troops were fighting in the Ukraine until what, the mid 1950's?

        Pruitt
        14th SS retreated to Austria and renamed itself 1st Ukrainian Division right before German surrender. They surrendered to the British and Americans. The Americans refused to repatriate the Ukrainians back to the USSR. What was left of 14th SS was transferred to Britain as POW's and later released into the general population where most of them lived and died until some repatriation survivors back to Ukraine in very recent years.
        Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

        Prayers.

        BoRG

        http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Salinator View Post
          14th SS was formed in 1943 and Stalin had already deported the ethnic Germans to Central Asia by September 1941.
          From Western Ukraine? C'mon.
          14 SS Division was originally called "Galizian" and was recruited from a territory of General-Governorate (rump Poland in other words). So no official connection to Ukrainians at start. It had a significant proportion of German personnel, especially officers and NCOs. Also in addition to 14 SS several police regiments were raised in Galicia, some of them were later incorporated into the division.
          Worth to remind here that "Ukrainians" is an umbrella term for several ethnic groups different in culture, history, tradition, religion or even language. "Ukrainians" from Kharkov were actually closer to Russians than to "Ukrainians" from L'vov.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
            From Western Ukraine? C'mon.
            14 SS Division was originally called "Galizian" and was recruited from a territory of General-Governorate (rump Poland in other words). So no official connection to Ukrainians at start.
            Save from the fact that the Eastern end of the General Governatorate included the territory of Lemberg (Lwów, Lvov, L'viv) where, even when that place was in Poland, there were lots of Ukrainans. And the rank and file was recruited among them. Yes, the officers and NCOs tended to be Germans or Volksdeutsche, but that's no different from other foreign SS divisions.
            The English-language Wiki page about the division shows a recruitment poster. It's in Ukrainan, and the slogan seems to me to be saying: "For glory and honor, for the motherland, for victory, for you".

            Michele

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
              From Western Ukraine? C'mon.
              14 SS Division was originally called "Galizian" and was recruited from a territory of General-Governorate (rump Poland in other words). So no official connection to Ukrainians at start. It had a significant proportion of German personnel, especially officers and NCOs. Also in addition to 14 SS several police regiments were raised in Galicia, some of them were later incorporated into the division.
              Worth to remind here that "Ukrainians" is an umbrella term for several ethnic groups different in culture, history, tradition, religion or even language. "Ukrainians" from Kharkov were actually closer to Russians than to "Ukrainians" from L'vov.
              Keep your panty twist to yourself. This thread is not an attack on your beloved Mother Russia. The police regiments ware incorporated into 14th SS during their reconstruction after being virtually destroyed at Brody.
              Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

              Prayers.

              BoRG

              http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                I was under the impression that the Ukrainians had an Independence Army as well. It could and did fight against the Germans or Red Army. Many Ukrainians enlisted in the 14th SS and deserted back to the Independence Army after they were armed and trained. Once the Red Army rolled through the Ukraine many hid their arms and went underground. The Red Army and NKVD troops were fighting in the Ukraine until what, the mid 1950's?

                Pruitt
                Yes, that was the UPA of the OUN-B founded by Bandera. UPA means the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Significant resistance to the Soviets ended in 1950, but the last known commander was captured in 1954, and some sporadic demonstrative action took place until 1955, I think.
                Michele

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Michele View Post
                  Save from the fact that the Eastern end of the General Governatorate included the territory of Lemberg (Lwów, Lvov, L'viv) where, even when that place was in Poland, there were lots of Ukrainans.
                  Yup, but originally there was no official designation of the division as "Ukrainian" or any reference to Ukraine.
                  Yes, the officers and NCOs tended to be Germans or Volksdeutsche, but that's no different from other foreign SS divisions.
                  So there was some German personnel contrary to the previous poster, right?
                  You, guys, would do me a favor if you reply to what I'm literally saying instead to what you imagine I'm saying.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Salinator View Post

                    14th SS retreated to Austria and renamed itself 1st Ukrainian Division right before German surrender. They surrendered to the British and Americans. The Americans refused to repatriate the Ukrainians back to the USSR. What was left of 14th SS was transferred to Britain as POW's and later released into the general population where most of them lived and died until some repatriation survivors back to Ukraine in very recent years.
                    A significant proportion in the Bradford area. I was a postgrad student at Bradford University Business School in 1967 and remember that numbers of Ukranians had settled around Shipley and Baildon. There were I remember a couple of Ukrainian food shops in Shipley. Many of the Yorkshire locals couldn't (or wouldn't) distinguish between Poles (of which there were a lot in Bradford) and Ukrainians (which annoyed the hell out of both Poles and Ukrainians).
                    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                    • #11
                      this is their unit history

                      https://www.amazon.com/Galicia-Divis.../dp/0764300814


                      -By March 1943, over 12,000 volunteers were collected from Galicia

                      -April 1943, goal by Wachter was to get 20,000.
                      Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                      Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                      Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                      Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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                      • #12
                        April 12th 1943- officer slots issued at 600. Issues: Ukrainians were not qualified and the German officer/nco corps were in decline; regular german formations had shortages themselves.

                        Germans denied Ukrainians the officer slots and sent a mixture of German officers and failed officers from other formations.

                        -July 1943: 300 officer candidates sent to school. 48 medical doctors to OCS as well. 1,300 NCOs and 800 NCO candidates were also sent to school.
                        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          -foreign officers and ncos were later allocated to the division (presumably after losses)

                          -Training and replacement regiment reported 10,000 persons in Jan 1944- many of them deported (Ukrainian) slave laborers who volunteered.
                          Last edited by Cult Icon; 16 Jul 18, 08:34.
                          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Artyom_A View Post
                            Yup, but originally there was no official designation of the division as "Ukrainian" or any reference to Ukraine.
                            That's right. My misunderstanding, sorry.

                            So there was some German personnel contrary to the previous poster, right?
                            Definitely there were lots, as mentioned and as with all other foreign SS unit.

                            Michele

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