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Which was WWII’s most genuinely versatile aircraft? The JU 88 ....just?

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  • #31
    Termites will not attack treated wood.
    Will no one tell me what she sings?--
    Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
    For old, unhappy, far-off things,
    And battles long ago:
    -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

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    • #32
      I wasn't going to reply, but I suppose I must seeing as some of those posting read Wiki, suck up 'quotes' and imbibe in soundbites.

      Long range Recce flights in the far east:

      “Wing Commander J R H Merifield (pilot) and Flight Lieutenant J H Spires (navigator) in De Havilland Mosquito PR Mark 34, RG241 'K', of No. 540 Squadron RAF, taxied to the main runway at St Mawgan, Cornwall, before taking off on the fastest recorded east to west crossing of the Atlantic at that time. They landed at Gander, Newfoundland 7 hours and 2 minutes later. The return flight, on 23 October, was accomplished in 5 hours 10 minutes, a record which still stands for a twin piston-engined aircraft crossing the Atlantic.”

      22nd March 1944, 684 Sqd PR XVI NS688/Q Flt Lt Robin Sinclair and Flg Off Reggie Stocks. Northern Malaya establishing a distance record at that time of 2,490miles lasting 8hrs 45minutes.

      6th May 1944, 684 Sqn PR IX LR445/R Flt Flt Lt Kos Newman and Flt Sgt Ray Smith 2,256 miles. Flight took 7 hrs 20 mins = average speed of 308 mph.

      The squadron flew other sorties ranging between 2,100 and 2.493 miles (Flown by Flt Lt Jack Irvine and Flt Sgt Bob Bannister in March 1945)

      End of May 1945 From RAF Benson to Karachi (A distance of 4,000 miles. Karachi is now in the west of Pakistan, on the coast of the Arabian Sea) in a 684 Sqn PR34 RG185/Z Sqn Ldr Kos Newman and Wt Off Ray Smith were part of a flight of three PR MK 34’s the fastest of them reached Karachi in 12 hrs 27 minutes. Sqn Ldr Kos Newman and Wt Off Ray Smith had to return to Benson due to engine trouble but resumed their flight to Karachi beating the earlier time by 2 minutes. (12 hrs 25 minutes)


      Operation Frugal:

      This was a British programme of special air mail flights operated by de Havilland Mosquito aircraft from the UK to the USSR, Italy and Egypt to carry diplomatic and military communications during 'Tolstoy', otherwise the 4th Moscow Conference (9/23 October 1944).

      'Frugal' was undertaken by aircraft of No. 544 Squadron (MkXVI) to Ramenskoye in the USSR via Memel, a journey which took an average of 6 hours 30 minutes. Vnukovo/Moscow later became the Soviet end of the service. Some 27 flights were made in 14 days, these carrying mail between Northolt and Moscow during the 4th Moscow Conference, the average speeds from take-off to landing being 314 mph (505 km/h) on the eastward trip and 300 mph (483 km/h) on the westward trip. On his return from the conference, Prime Minister Winston Churchill sent a message thanking the squadron for the punctuality of the service.

      The flights were not without incident: on one trip a Mosquito encountered four German fighters (three piston-engined aircraft and one Messerschmitt Me 262 turbojet-engined fighter), and on another trip a Mosquito was intercepted by a Messerschmitt Me 163 rocket-powered interceptor near Dortmund, but escaped.

      'Frugal' also involved mail flights to Cairo and Naples.

      On 'weakness':

      "It was eventually determined that the initial problems were the result of a combination of poor mate-up of some structural members, poor gluing practices and failure of glued joints, apparently most common among Far East aircraft after prolonged outdoor storage. It also appeared that swelling of the top skin could lead the securing screws to pull through.

      Subsequent examination of European theatre aircraft found a much lower prevalence of joint defects, and no lifting of wing skins. Further investigation in India identified two main defects: the wing spar scarf joints, and the spar boom joints with the plywood skin and other ply members, leading to lifting of the upper surface plywood skin.

      Consequently, Modification 638 was adopted: adding a spanwise plywood strip to seal the upper surface skin joint along the length of the front spar; along with application of protective aluminium dope overall (from February 1945). Despite these efforts, in the tropical conditions of the Far East the combination of heat and water soakage continued to give rise to swelling and shrinkage, resulting in spar defects until as late as 1954."

      http://www.151squadron.org.uk/World%20War%20II.htm

      Ability:

      Of the 28,215 sorties flown by 8 Group’s Mosquitoes they lost 108 on operations and a further 88 to accidents etc. more than two thirds of these sorties were flown while the rest of Bomber Command was grounded.


      Mosquitoes laid mines in the Kiel canal. Example of mine-laying comes from Mosquitoes of 692 Sqn and 571 Sqn on the 5th October 1944

      Berlin attack 21/22nd March 1945. 20 Mosquitoes bombed Berlin twice in one night. Taking off at 19:30hrs and attacking at 21:30 hrs, then again from 01:40 hrs and attacking at 04:00 hours. Returning at 06:00hrs.

      Mosquito bombers flew a total of 39,795 sorties during the Second World War, delivering 26,867 tons of bombs. Losses amounted to 254 aircraft representing a loss rate of 0.63 percent, the lowest of any aircraft type in Bomber Command.
      H2S Ground Mapping. Used by the USAAF for clandestine 'Redstocking' missions. Postwar, used for A.S.V (radar) and E.C.M missions. used as a fast airliner from 1943-45, and a Hollywood star

      The Mk XVI Could and did fly at 35,000ft with a cruising speed of 300 Knots. Most Photo Recce and Bomber types flew at cruising speeds of between 295 and 350mph on missions not the 250 to 260mph Economical speed as touted above, if they did, they would have been almost as slow as a Lancaster with 12,000lbs of bombs. A cursory study of Mosquito bomber missions to Berlin will show that they bombed 2 hours after take-off (600miles) but remember they never went directly to the target, they would 'dog-leg' and feint (Spoof) towards another target before bombing the original target from a unusual direction. On some raids they would actually bomb and mark from 35,000ft but in general, they would shallow dive, picking up speed over the target before releasing their wares, which would give them minimal time over the target and thus harder to hit by flak or be intercepted by nigh-fighters.

      The Pommie/Limey Critiques can take it or leave it. Better still, do some in-depth research of your own.
      Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 16 Jul 18, 03:56.
      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
      All human ills he can subdue,
      Or with a bauble or medal
      Can win mans heart for you;
      And many a blessing know to stew
      To make a megloamaniac bright;
      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
      The Pixie is a little shite.

      Comment


      • #33
        The Mosquito skip-bombed railway tunnels with 4,000pdrs. Were deadly accurate when bombing low-level by day or night so had no need to dive-bomb. Someone above asked if the Mosquito had armour? Yes! The anti-shipping coastal-strike aircraft had an extra 900lbs of armour plating to the cowlings, cockpit floor and over the nose
        ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
        All human ills he can subdue,
        Or with a bauble or medal
        Can win mans heart for you;
        And many a blessing know to stew
        To make a megloamaniac bright;
        Give honour to the dainty Corse,
        The Pixie is a little shite.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post

          and feared beavers.
          1034 were built in Canada.

          The Brit's lengthened the wings, added two more engines and took off the tailplane of the Avro Manchester and called it the Avro Lancaster. some of the parts were similar but the end result was a different aircraft, thus the different name. The same with the Ju88 188, 288, 388, and 488. all made by the same company, all different aircraft with only the Ju88 being any real good.

          Anyway! the Mk XV Mosquito high altitude fighter had extended wings out to 59ft from 52 ft and a pressurised cabin'

          And just to reiterate. The T MK III (Dual control) trainer entered service in mid 1942

          The post-war Target Tug TT MK39 had its fuselage extended to 43ft 4ins from 42ft 2ins
          Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 16 Jul 18, 04:47.
          ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
          All human ills he can subdue,
          Or with a bauble or medal
          Can win mans heart for you;
          And many a blessing know to stew
          To make a megloamaniac bright;
          Give honour to the dainty Corse,
          The Pixie is a little shite.

          Comment


          • #35
            They made just 5 of the Mk XV. The plane was specifically designed to intercept Ju 86P reconnissance planes. By the time it was ready, modified Spitfires had already taken care of the threat.

            http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...uito/mp469.pdf

            Also, the Ju 88, 188, and 388 and 488 share about 75 to 90% commonality. The Ju 288 is an entirely different aircraft. The Ju 188 is just a rebadged Ju 88B for all intents. The 388 gets different engines and the crew compartment nose designed for the Ju 188S or T. But, the airframe is still just a Ju 88 one.

            The Lancaster / Manchester isn't being discussed here for versatility, that is unless you are wanting to toss it into the discussion separately.

            Comment


            • #36
              Now you are being silly. You know as well as everyone else that the JU188, 288 388 and 488 are all different. please show me evidence where they were all the 88. The 488 shared commonality with what JU? Please be so kind and let us know which one it was. And perhaps you have a Junkers Blurb which says all the Junkers aircraft were Ju88's. The reason for those different versions of those JU's was because of what reason?.

              You also know full-well that a good comparison can be made between the Manchester/Lancaster conversion and the JU conversions.

              The Mosquito still became a high altitude fighter with the MKXV and its altitude of 44,500ft. Later Mosquitoes were able to get 43,000ft anyway as of course was the Spitfire, right up to 45,000ft and beyond.

              Even though there were only 5 MK. XV's they were nevertheless high altitude fighters with pressurised cabins and used for research into this field too.

              And being even better at everything it does, is a versatility all its own and the ultimate versatility all pilots want.

              By the way, your link to performance data is dated January 1943. The Altitudes reached were between 43.800 ft in March, to 44,600ft by August
              Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 18 Jul 18, 06:17.
              ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
              All human ills he can subdue,
              Or with a bauble or medal
              Can win mans heart for you;
              And many a blessing know to stew
              To make a megloamaniac bright;
              Give honour to the dainty Corse,
              The Pixie is a little shite.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                Now you are being silly. You know as well as everyone else that the JU188, 288 388 and 488 are all different. please show me evidence where they were all the 88. The 488 shared commonality with what JU? Please be so kind and let us know which one it was. And perhaps you have a Junkers Blurb which says all the Junkers aircraft were Ju88's. The reason for those different versions of those JU's was because of what reason?.
                The Ju 88B is the first variant with a new crew compartment arrangement.



                It also got the BMW 801 MA engine installed. The prototype Ju 88B is the Ju 88 V-27 (D-AWLN). The second one is the Ju 88 V44 (NF+KQ). This aircraft is redesignated the Ju 188 V1. The switch in crew compartment styles is no different than the one Henkel did on the He 111.

                He 111F bomber:



                He 111H bomber



                Same plane, radically different crew compartments.

                The Ju 288 is an entirely different aircraft and not included in the Ju 88 series. It was built for the Bomber B program and never went into production.

                The Ju 388 is simply a derivative of the Ju 188. The prototype Ju 388L V1 was a Ju 188T-1 airframe that was modified. For the 10 pre-production Ju 388L-0's, Junkers used 10 Ju 88S-1 airframes.

                The Ju 488 used the forward fuselage of a Ju 388K, including the crew compartment, the aft fuselage of a Ju 188F or G including the FA 15 tail turret with additional sections added like the ones on the Ju 88H. The outer wing sections were from the Ju 188E. A ventral panner from the Ju 88A-15 was added to the fuselage. The only new component was the inboard wing section that had an identical (including landing gear) engine nacelle included in it. The tail assembly was initially that of a Ju 188 but it was decided to substitute a Ju 288 one instead.

                The reason for the Ju 188 and 388 was these substantially improved performance over the Ju 88, and in the odd way the Germans did things they became numbered as they did. The Ju 488 was born out of desperation. The Luftwaffe wanted a four engine bomber on the cheap and Junkers suggested just using the Ju 88 modified. That way the assembly line and parts were mostly already available.


                You also know full-well that a good comparison can be made between the Manchester/Lancaster conversion and the JU conversions.
                It doesn't matter. We're not discussing that aircraft here.

                The Mosquito still became a high altitude fighter with the MKXV and its altitude of 44,500ft. Later Mosquitoes were able to get 43,000ft anyway as of course was the Spitfire, right up to 45,000ft and beyond.

                Even though there were only 5 MK. XV's they were nevertheless high altitude fighters with pressurised cabins and used for research into this field too.

                And being even better at everything it does, is a versatility all its own and the ultimate versatility all pilots want.

                By the way, your link to performance data is dated January 1943. The Altitudes reached were between 43.800 ft in March, to 44,600ft by August
                So? You do know that the MK XV variant carried just 4 .303 guns. That's hardly a viable armament for dealing with enemy aircraft by 1942. But, the argument here is versatility, not ultimate performance. In versatility, the Ju 88 beats the Mosquito.
                Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 18 Jul 18, 13:00.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I think versatility is relevant primarily within national context. The Mosquito was the most versatile of Britain's aircraft, while the Ju-88 was arguably the most versatile on the German side, but neither of them amounted to anything as far as America or the Soviet Union was concerned.

                  Meanwhile, the Ju88 suffered from a small bomb load and relatively poor self-defense armament, while the Mosquito could haul 4,000 lbs of bombs vs the Ju's 1100 lb bomb load, with the Mosquito being faster and more maneuverable.

                  It is extremely difficult to make one aircraft from one nation the "most" anything, given the wide range of requirements of the various nations; however, overall, I still think the Mosquito was the most versatile design, especially given it's wooden construction, just as the British Merlin engine was probably the best aircraft engine of its time.

                  The .303 armament nonsense was a hangup of Britain overall. The Lancaster carried them, as did the Beaufighter and the Spitfire and all other British aircraft of that time. Britain obviously found it easiest to manufacture that caliber of bullet in place of all others, while America went for the .50 round overall, a much more effective round for the role.
                  Last edited by Mountain Man; 18 Jul 18, 13:26.
                  Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Actually, the Ju 88 could carry as much as 6,600 lbs. of bombs, just most of that was externally, something the Mosquito wasn't designed for. The most common bomber type the A-4 carried 3,300 lbs. maximum.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      I think versatility is relevant primarily within national context. The Mosquito was the most versatile of Britain's aircraft, while the Ju-88 was arguably the most versatile on the German side, but neither of them amounted to anything as far as America or the Soviet Union was concerned.

                      Meanwhile, the Ju88 suffered from a small bomb load and relatively poor self-defense armament, while the Mosquito could haul 4,000 lbs of bombs vs the Ju's 1100 lb bomb load, with the Mosquito being faster and more maneuverable.

                      It is extremely difficult to make one aircraft from one nation the "most" anything, given the wide range of requirements of the various nations; however, overall, I still think the Mosquito was the most versatile design, especially given it's wooden construction, just as the British Merlin engine was probably the best aircraft engine of its time.

                      The .303 armament nonsense was a hangup of Britain overall. The Lancaster carried them, as did the Beaufighter and the Spitfire and all other British aircraft of that time. Britain obviously found it easiest to manufacture that caliber of bullet in place of all others, while America went for the .50 round overall, a much more effective round for the role.
                      The .303.s on the production models of fighter/fighter bomber, were supplementary to the 4x 20.mm. In some later marks the .303s were removed. But the 20.mm cannons were much better than the .50....The debacle of the U.S version of the 20mm cannon story is a whole new talking point.

                      The A-4 88 could carry 8,000lbs but its range and speed were woeful. Even with a bomb-load of 5,000lbs, it could hardly fly for 800miles, and the A-15 failed too, even with its 6,600lb load fully enclosed in a bomb-bay, it was abandoned.
                      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                      All human ills he can subdue,
                      Or with a bauble or medal
                      Can win mans heart for you;
                      And many a blessing know to stew
                      To make a megloamaniac bright;
                      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                      The Pixie is a little shite.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                        The Ju 88B is the first variant with a new crew compartment arrangement.



                        It also got the BMW 801 MA engine installed. The prototype Ju 88B is the Ju 88 V-27 (D-AWLN). The second one is the Ju 88 V44 (NF+KQ). This aircraft is redesignated the Ju 188 V1. The switch in crew compartment styles is no different than the one Henkel did on the He 111.

                        He 111F bomber:



                        He 111H bomber



                        Same plane, radically different crew compartments.

                        The Ju 288 is an entirely different aircraft and not included in the Ju 88 series. It was built for the Bomber B program and never went into production.

                        The Ju 388 is simply a derivative of the Ju 188. The prototype Ju 388L V1 was a Ju 188T-1 airframe that was modified. For the 10 pre-production Ju 388L-0's, Junkers used 10 Ju 88S-1 airframes.

                        The Ju 488 used the forward fuselage of a Ju 388K, including the crew compartment, the aft fuselage of a Ju 188F or G including the FA 15 tail turret with additional sections added like the ones on the Ju 88H. The outer wing sections were from the Ju 188E. A ventral panner from the Ju 88A-15 was added to the fuselage. The only new component was the inboard wing section that had an identical (including landing gear) engine nacelle included in it. The tail assembly was initially that of a Ju 188 but it was decided to substitute a Ju 288 one instead.

                        The reason for the Ju 188 and 388 was these substantially improved performance over the Ju 88, and in the odd way the Germans did things they became numbered as they did. The Ju 488 was born out of desperation. The Luftwaffe wanted a four engine bomber on the cheap and Junkers suggested just using the Ju 88 modified. That way the assembly line and parts were mostly already available.




                        It doesn't matter. We're not discussing that aircraft here.



                        So? You do know that the MK XV variant carried just 4 .303 guns. That's hardly a viable armament for dealing with enemy aircraft by 1942. But, the argument here is versatility, not ultimate performance. In versatility, the Ju 88 beats the Mosquito.
                        like I said (Especially with that lot you posted above) You are indeed, being silly
                        ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                        All human ills he can subdue,
                        Or with a bauble or medal
                        Can win mans heart for you;
                        And many a blessing know to stew
                        To make a megloamaniac bright;
                        Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                        The Pixie is a little shite.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post

                          like I said (Especially with that lot you posted above) You are indeed, being silly
                          And, you are being obtuse

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            There you go yet again!....Being silly.

                            ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                            All human ills he can subdue,
                            Or with a bauble or medal
                            Can win mans heart for you;
                            And many a blessing know to stew
                            To make a megloamaniac bright;
                            Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                            The Pixie is a little shite.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post

                              The .303.s on the production models of fighter/fighter bomber, were supplementary to the 4x 20.mm. In some later marks the .303s were removed. But the 20.mm cannons were much better than the .50....The debacle of the U.S version of the 20mm cannon story is a whole new talking point.

                              The A-4 88 could carry 8,000lbs but its range and speed were woeful. Even with a bomb-load of 5,000lbs, it could hardly fly for 800miles, and the A-15 failed too, even with its 6,600lb load fully enclosed in a bomb-bay, it was abandoned.
                              Not surprising since dive bombers were not expected to need long range at the time. Our ground attack aircraft today haven't got the long range of a bomber, either.

                              The Do335 matched the performance of the Ju88 and then some, including internal bomb load, but never became operational in time. It was much faster, however, and heavily armed.

                              As for the .303's, they were standard on British bomber turrets and elsewhere, although the British did, as you point out, move to the 20mm cannon fairly quickly. As you also point out, America stayed with the .50 with the exception of the P-38 and the P-39, although we did end up mounting 75mm canon in some medium bombers used against Japanese shipping.
                              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                I think versatility is relevant primarily within national context. The Mosquito was the most versatile of Britain's aircraft, while the Ju-88 was arguably the most versatile on the German side, but neither of them amounted to anything as far as America or the Soviet Union was concerned.
                                Yes a good point and as I said in my Op:

                                “Interestingly neither the US or Soviet Union really seriously developed this idea of versatile aircraft platforms.
                                The US perhaps because it had the luxury of doing without it and just using purpose built planes or the ever -present and useful so-called ‘fighter-bomber’.

                                A different approach to aircraft in general perhaps?”

                                It
                                is worth considering whether all the effort that went into developing various ‘types’ of some aircraft like the Mosquito and to a lesser extent the JU 88 might not have been better spent in simply concentrating on developing and building purpose built plane that met operational requirements properly.
                                Especially for some major types like torpedo-bombers, photo-recce, etc.

                                The US and USSR seemed to have manged their respective 'air wars' without a 'Jack of all trades'.
                                I certainly don't think the Mosquito was a n essential element in the winning the air war in the West - more a a boutique show pony as I said before.
                                Relax fanboiis it was beautiful to look at and did lots of cool things but remember the Luftwaffe in the West post June 1941 was fighting on a total shoestring for a long time, just a holding action really. The Mosquito wasn't actually facing formidable odds etc.

                                Regards
                                lodestar


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