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Which German Fighter would you have produced instead of the Bf-109 and Bf-110

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  • Which German Fighter would you have produced instead of the Bf-109 and Bf-110

    Germany developed but did not use several good fighter designs prior to WWII, which would you think should have "seen the fires of Combat"?
    the Heinkel He-100
    the Heinkel He-280
    the Heinkel He-112
    the Focke Wolfe Fw-187
    15
    Heinkel He-100
    0.00%
    0
    Heinkel He-112
    0.00%
    0
    Heinkel He-280
    13.33%
    2
    Focke Wolfe Fw-187
    86.67%
    13

  • #2
    By the Way, I voted for the Fw-187 Falke (Falcon).
    It was the heavy fighter that the Bf-110 was not.

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    • #3
      I also voted for the FW-187. Of the bunch listed; it was the best.



      Nice writeup here.
      http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/fw187.html
      Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

      "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

      What didn't kill us; didn't make us smarter.

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      • #4
        If I can only choose one...

        ...then the 110 is the first one to replace and the "Falke" is the machine to do it.

        That said, the He-100 also showed the promise to surpass the Bf-109 in many regimens of the flight envelope, particularly range. The bureaucratic incompetance within the Technisches Amt at the RLM is well known; these machines are two of the best early examples of this ridiculous bias. I don't know what Willi Messerschmitt knew about the geneology (or political past, or sexuality, or marital status, or...)of certain key people within this vital department...but I strongly suspect that it was something along these lines that allowed his continuing favorited status within the ranks of those who decided what got the green light. If you look at the numbers (particularly in regards to the 110 vs. 187) I think that it's obvious that there was a little more going on behind the scenes than we'll ever know. It really comes down to the inherent rot that pervaded Nazi Germany's leadership at all levels; the RLM being one of the better known cases.

        Imagine later model Fw-187's powered by two Jumo213's!! Can you say bye,bye Mosquito?

        Interesting topic, my two cents

        Cheers, Ron
        Last edited by iron; 13 Oct 07, 12:32. Reason: clarity within my "blackmail" proposition.
        48 trips 'round the sun on this sh*tball we call home...and still learning...
        __________________________________________________ __________________

        Comment


        • #5
          Anyone got any data on the He 280 listed? Until I see something I will have to be fond of the He 112.

          Pruitt
          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
            Anyone got any data on the He 280 listed?
            Pruitt
            Here's some data about it: He280

            I have choosen Fw 187.
            Historia Magistra Vitae.
            M. T. Cicero

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            • #7
              I think the German Air Ministry should have funded more research and development into jet engines. They did not get much bang for the money spent.

              Pruitt
              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for the participation so far guys. So far it seems .. well actually it's unanimous, everybody would have replaced the Bf-110. I guess there is no love for Goerings "ironsides" fighters.
                I have like Iron's post always wondered what hold Willi held over the RLM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Pruitt Said:
                  I think the German Air Ministry should have funded more research and development into jet engines. They did not get much bang for the money spent.
                  I think their R & D was actually more than adequate. The real problem lay within their ability to obtain most of the various strategic metals. When they occupied a large part of the western Soviet Union, they had better access to Chromium and Molybdenum, two vital metals for making turbine components that can withstand the inherrently radical temperature fluctuations. (Nickel was also always a problem...actually... so were Tungsten, Manganese, Vanadium, Aluminium... ) By the time they were ready to go into full scale production, the fortunes of war (in particular, machine tools for war production) had consumed much of what they could obtain. Components had to be constantly redesigned in an attempt to circumvent these shortcomings... we all know the outcome of this.
                  The designs themselves were fundamentally sound for what they were...first generation axial flow turbojets. Besides what was noted above, the biggest problem with these early generation turbines (as I see it, anyways) was the fact that they were total fuel hogs. Despite the facts that:
                  i) the fuel they used could be made from the far more common "Brown" or lignite coal (which Germany had in abundance) and
                  ii)the fuel also required far less refining than aviation grade gasoline

                  I doubt that the synthetic processes could ever provide enough of it.

                  To use the most common airframe as an example, the Me-262A (2 x Jumo 004 turbojets). Fuel loadout was 1800 litres (1.47 metric tons), giving a theoretical combat range of roughly 1000km (at altitude). These figures are commonly available and accepted. Simple math says that to mount an operation at Staffel strength (12 a/c) we're looking at a total loadout of 21,600 litres or about 17.6 metric tons. Combat quickly proved that these machines consumed fuel at a very high rate when operating at the edge of their performance envelope...this was the rule, not the exception. By and large, the throttles went to the stops and stayed there until it was time to land the thing! When the Schwable went into squadron ops (JG7 mid-January '45) the German fuel situation was challenging, to say the least. Figures I can most easily access, show that the entire Luftwaffe was allotted 44,000 metric tons of German production for the month of December 1944 (a large part of this was consumed in the training for and excecution of the futile Bodenplatte mission). Production for the Luftwaffe's needs in December 1944 amounted to only 26,000 metric tons however. If the Germans would have had the (oft proffered) 1000 operational 262's in this month then this hypothetical fleet would require 1467 metric tons of fuel, everytime it left the ground...clearly unsustainable.
                  By way of comparison, the internal fuel capcity of the Bf-109G-10 was 340 litres; the Focke Wulf 190A-8 was 525 (and that kept the 190 in the air for at least two hours, closer to three if you didn't find anyone to shoot at).
                  Even when the Jagdfliegers fuel situation was far better, earlier in the war, it still would have been a problem keeping a large jet force in the air. The 262 was anything but a quick learn, even for the experten that flew her later in the war. Type conversion training would have consumed massive amounts of fuel, if conducted on a large scale. (i.e. keeping 6 or so JG's manned at operational establishment)

                  Or at least that's my take on it

                  Cheers, Ron

                  PS: I think if you added the Me-262's battery of 4 x Mk108s to my (above mentioned) hypothetical FW-187 with Jumo-213's, you'd probably end up with a similar platform to the Schwable...probably a far more cost effective one as well ... but I digress.
                  48 trips 'round the sun on this sh*tball we call home...and still learning...
                  __________________________________________________ __________________

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                  • #10
                    187 & Do 335.

                    The unconventional layout of the Do-335 -- one engine "pulling" in the nose and another "pushing" in the tail -- was patented by Claudius Dornier in 1937.

                    Goering told Dornier in 1940; The war will be over soon, we don't need it.

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                    • #11
                      Fw-187.

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                      • #12
                        Yep, id go with the FW-187, but would have been interesting to have seen two aircraft with elliptical wings, ( HE-100 and Spitfire ) , going hammer and tongs during the battle of Britian

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                        • #13
                          Thank You Everybody

                          Thanks for the responses every one. Even learned a thing or two also, about fuel consumption, and the Do-335 etc.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Apparently she was a joy to fly, go figure???



                            Eternal War(gaming) Armoured Struggle Car Bob

                            History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis.
                            Lazarus Long

                            Draw the blinds on yesterday and it's all so much scarier....
                            David Bowie

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                            • #15
                              One downside of the 335 was time to construct & amount of materials. But still, better choice than ME 210 & 410.

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