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What if Queen Elizabeth Battleships had met Kongo Battleships off of Guadalcanal?

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  • What if Queen Elizabeth Battleships had met Kongo Battleships off of Guadalcanal?

    I have an interesting scenario for some of you. Kongo Class Battleships of the IJN have been compared for years to the Queen Elizabeths of Great Britain. At least two battles were fought off Guadalcanal by Hiei and Kirishima. How would the crude radar of the British fare against superior night vision devices of the Japanese?

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

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  • #2
    How good were the Royal Navy's DDs at night-fighting?

    Most of the naval battles in Iron Bottom Sound were decided by the Tin Cans and their torpedoes.

    The night that USS Washington sank Kirishima and damaged Hiei...USS South Dakota was heavily damaged and I seem to recall that their entire DD screen was sunk or damaged. Washington and South Dakota were state-of-the art BBs with bigger guns, more armor and far better RADAR and fire control than their IJN foes...yet that battle could very easily have gone the other way.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
      I have an interesting scenario for some of you. Kongo Class Battleships of the IJN have been compared for years to the Queen Elizabeths of Great Britain. At least two battles were fought off Guadalcanal by Hiei and Kirishima. How would the crude radar of the British fare against superior night vision devices of the Japanese?

      Pruitt
      No doubt like the battle between The Bismarck & The Hood.

      Orderly: Sir, a message from Prince of Wales

      DOD: What's it say son?

      Orderly: uh, uh, uh,

      DOD: Out with it man, what's the message?

      Orderly: It's The Hood Sir......It's Blown Up...........

      Glug, Glug, Glug to the bottm with The Q.E.'s too.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Duke William View Post
        No doubt like the battle between The Bismarck & The Hood.

        Orderly: Sir, a message from Prince of Wales

        DOD: What's it say son?

        Orderly: uh, uh, uh,

        DOD: Out with it man, what's the message?

        Orderly: It's The Hood Sir......It's Blown Up...........

        Glug, Glug, Glug to the bottm with The Q.E.'s too.
        On the contrary it would be the Kongos which would sink. The Kongo class battlecruisers were built to British designs based on the British Lion class battle cruisers.
        Both the QEs and the Kongos were British ww1 designs but the QEs being battleships as opposed to battlecruisers, had more armour and bigger guns. The Kongos weren't designed to fight a battleship, the QEs were.
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        • #5
          Hmmmm, I always thought these "X vs. Y battleship" threads were pointless and artificial. Mainly because BBs never sailed alone. The Bismarck episode is unique in that respect.

          QEs like any other allied ship would be in most danger from long lances. In fact IIRC, no Japanese BB, or CA, ever sank or damaged an allied ship with gunfire. Not the case in the opposite sense, even Hiei was crippled by 8 inch gunfire during one of the Guadalcanal battles. The QEs would have been a close match for the Kongos...it could have gone either way depending on what other ships were there who got the lucky shot in first etc.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by joea View Post
            In fact IIRC, no Japanese BB, or CA, ever sank or damaged an allied ship with gunfire.
            I must have missed the story about the Japanese destroyers with 8" to 18.1" guns that sank the Johnston and Gambier Bay at Samar.

            What a waste the Japanese Navy was, all that money spent and in WW II not even one damaging hit on a US navy ship from their CAs or BBs. Must have been a result of the styrofoam shells they were firing.
            Last edited by w john spurrell; 21 Sep 07, 14:35.
            "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
              I have an interesting scenario for some of you. Kongo Class Battleships of the IJN have been compared for years to the Queen Elizabeths of Great Britain. At least two battles were fought off Guadalcanal by Hiei and Kirishima. How would the crude radar of the British fare against superior night vision devices of the Japanese?

              Pruitt
              Rule of thumb in most WWII Battleship engagements. Whoever made the first main battery salvo hit, usually won the fight.
              "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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              • #8
                Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
                How good were the Royal Navy's DDs at night-fighting?

                Most of the naval battles in Iron Bottom Sound were decided by the Tin Cans and their torpedoes.

                The night that USS Washington sank Kirishima and damaged Hiei...USS South Dakota was heavily damaged and I seem to recall that their entire DD screen was sunk or damaged. Washington and South Dakota were state-of-the art BBs with bigger guns, more armor and far better RADAR and fire control than their IJN foes...yet that battle could very easily have gone the other way.
                You are speaking of two different, night time, naval engagements between the US Navy and the IJN Navy. Both of them were US victories. The Kirishima and Hiei indeed fought together in the first Battle of Guadalcanal on 12 and 13 November 1942. This savage battle has been described as being "a barroom brawl with the lights turned out." The Hiei bore the brunt of the battle, along the the rest of her accompanying warships against a handful of outnumbered US CA's, CL's and DD's. The Hiei was so badly damaged by gunfire and torpedo hits that she was scuttled the next day. The Kirishima seemed to bear a charmed life, for this battle at least. The US took heavy losses in ships and manpower as well, but still held the advantage at the battle's conclusion.

                The Battle that pitted the US Battleship's Washington and South Dakota vs. the Kirishima took place two days later and was also the battle that finally broke the back of the Japanese re-supply efforts towards that island.

                The Second Battle of Guadalcanal, 14 and 15 November was another US victory and it cost the Japanese the Battleship Kirishima and one destroyer vs. three US Destroyers lost and some damage to the South Dakota.
                "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by w john spurrell View Post
                  I must have missed the story about the Japanese destroyers with 8" to 18.1" guns that sank the Johnston and Gambier Bay at Samar.

                  What a waste the Japanese Navy was, all that money spent and in WW II not even one damaging hit on a US navy ship from their CAs or BBs. Must have been a result of the styrofoam shells they were firing.
                  There were a number of other sinkings caused by Japanese BB's and CA's. The battles around the Dutch East Indies in the opening days of the war for one. The numerous naval battles around Guadalcanal from 7 August, 1942 until well into 1943 for another. Then, there is also that other unfortunate incident off Samar with the Taffy light aircraft carriers against the battleline of the Imperial Japanese Navy.
                  "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Duke William View Post
                    No doubt like the battle between The Bismarck & The Hood.

                    Orderly: Sir, a message from Prince of Wales

                    DOD: What's it say son?

                    Orderly: uh, uh, uh,

                    DOD: Out with it man, what's the message?

                    Orderly: It's The Hood Sir......It's Blown Up...........

                    Glug, Glug, Glug to the bottm with The Q.E.'s too.
                    You want to be silly? Okay, then I'll be silly too! The chances of that actually occuring were not likely and only would be happening within that dusty, little, vacuum that you call a brain. The QE's were "Battleships". The Kongo's were "Battlecruisers." Big difference in armor plate. The QE's would shrug off a hit that would grieviously damage a Kongo.
                    Last edited by johnbryan; 21 Sep 07, 18:45.
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                    • #11
                      Did the British carry on using the fire control computers in WWII that they had in WWI?
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Listy View Post
                        Did the British carry on using the fire control computers in WWII that they had in WWI?
                        I can't say for sure about the British Battleships, although I do know that when the Iowa Class Battleships were re-commissioned in the 1980's they were using the same gunfire computers that they used in WW II. You can't improve much on that sort of technology. It's basic, to the point and can take a great deal of punishment, while still doing its job.
                        "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by joea View Post
                          Hmmmm, I always thought these "X vs. Y battleship" threads were pointless and artificial. Mainly because BBs never sailed alone. The Bismarck episode is unique in that respect.

                          QEs like any other allied ship would be in most danger from long lances. In fact IIRC, no Japanese BB, or CA, ever sank or damaged an allied ship with gunfire. Not the case in the opposite sense, even Hiei was crippled by 8 inch gunfire during one of the Guadalcanal battles. The QEs would have been a close match for the Kongos...it could have gone either way depending on what other ships were there who got the lucky shot in first etc.
                          There are documented cases of Allied warships being sunk due to gunfire from Japanese cruisers and/or battleships. Just two examples off the top of my head, the USS Gambier Bay was not only hit but also sunk due to fire received from Japanese cruisers and the Battleship Yamato during the Battle of Leyte Gulf and the Astoria was sunk as a result of explosions from fires originally started by Mikawa's cruiser force at Savo Island.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by cst784 View Post
                            There are documented cases of Allied warships being sunk due to gunfire from Japanese cruisers and/or battleships. Just two examples off the top of my head, the USS Gambier Bay was not only hit but also sunk due to fire received from Japanese cruisers and the Battleship Yamato during the Battle of Leyte Gulf and the Astoria was sunk as a result of explosions from fires originally started by Mikawa's cruiser force at Savo Island.
                            Yes, the Heavy Cruisers Astoria, Vincennes, Quincy and the Australian Cruiser Canberra, were sunk and the Cruiser Chicago had her bow blown off at Savo Island.
                            "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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                            • #15
                              The fact that the British ships had radar would at least give them the advantage of seeing the Japanese approach and making ready. I would think the Brits would be firing star shells out to maximim range to illuminate the approaching Japanese ships and flares could also be dropped from any of the BBs or their consorts recon a/c.
                              The Purist

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