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  • Battle of Britain, won by the Navy.

    Battle of Britain, won by the Navy.

    That's the title of an article by British naval historian David Hobbs in the latest copy of the Australian Navy leagues magazine, claiming that it wasn't the RAF that won the BOB, but the Navy.

    Among his claims is that Hitler gave up because even if he destroyed the RAF, he knew he could never get past the RN.

    Hobbs goes on to say that the Luftwaffe couldn't even stop the small ships from rescuing the BEF from Dunkirk, and that the armoured decks of the Nelson and Rodney would be impervious to German bombing because they didn't have armour piecing bombs.

    He doesnt mention that the RAF fought like hell over Dunkirk providing air support and destroying 160 German aircraft. So supposing the RAF was destroyed, could the RN survive with no air support, against an all out attack from 1,500 German medium and dive bombers plus about 30 U-boats.

    The Navy league naturally pushes for the Navy at every opportunity, but are they being a bit disingenuous in claiming the BOB as a Naval victory?

  • #2
    Sorry, nothing against you personally, at all, mate but....

    Not this again!

    If it's what it looks like, this story came out a good many months ago (at least) and was needlessly debated to death on more than one forum.
    Last edited by panther3485; 18 Jul 07, 03:59.
    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
      Sorry, nothing against you personally, at all, mate but....

      Not this again!

      If it's what it looks like, this story came out a good many months ago (at least) and was needlessly debated to death on more than one forum.
      Hi panther!

      No doubt this type of thing has been debated on the Operation Sealion thread, but darned if I was going to check through 845 pages to find out.

      I just read the article by Hobbs for the first time the other day, the Navy League mag grabs articles pushing the Navy relentlessly, but I thought this went a little bit to far.

      Do you mind telling me what conclusion you came to?

      Comment


      • #4
        at a risk of invoking the Sealion obsessive compulsive that dwells in these regions:

        The Royal Navy outnumbers the German navy in an order of about 10-1, apart from in subs and some cruiser types, where the Germans are close to parity.

        The Minefield resources that the Gemrans want to lay are an impossibility given the numbers of mine laying ships, this is further confounded by the number of Mine-sweepers the RN has in the area.

        The Subs are would have either run out or be about to run out of torpedo's, and any reduction of subs attack convoy's will have two knock on effects, namely the British would be aware something was afoot and the freeing of more escorts.

        The British have significant forces available for reenforcement at Gibraltar only a couple of days sailing away, and any forces directed to attack them will weaken the forces on the channel.

        The Germans only (Faint hope) is that the Royal Navy doesn't press home any attacks and contents it's self with skirmishing at the entrance to the channel. For some reason the Pro-sealion lot believed this to be the case.

        For more accurate data search the Sealion thread for posts by Andy H, as he had a lot of very good data, including Lists of every ship at the time.
        Winnie says
        ---------------------------------
        "He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

        It was an Accident."
        Herr Flick.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Listy View Post
          at a risk of invoking the Sealion obsessive compulsive that dwells in these regions:

          The Royal Navy outnumbers the German navy in an order of about 10-1, apart from in subs and some cruiser types, where the Germans are close to parity.

          The Minefield resources that the Gemrans want to lay are an impossibility given the numbers of mine laying ships, this is further confounded by the number of Mine-sweepers the RN has in the area.

          The Subs are would have either run out or be about to run out of torpedo's, and any reduction of subs attack convoy's will have two knock on effects, namely the British would be aware something was afoot and the freeing of more escorts.

          The British have significant forces available for reenforcement at Gibraltar only a couple of days sailing away, and any forces directed to attack them will weaken the forces on the channel.

          The Germans only (Faint hope) is that the Royal Navy doesn't press home any attacks and contents it's self with skirmishing at the entrance to the channel. For some reason the Pro-sealion lot believed this to be the case.

          For more accurate data search the Sealion thread for posts by Andy H, as he had a lot of very good data, including Lists of every ship at the time.
          Good points Listy, but would the Royal Navy have been vulnerable to air attack by the Luftwaffe if Germany had achieved air superiority, with about 1,500 medium and dive bombers. The Prince of Wales and Repulse were attacked by about 300 Japanese aircraft.

          I suppose if the Germans didn't have armour piecing bombs it would have made things a bit difficult for the Luftwaffe.

          I might make the effort to check those 845 pages.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Aussie View Post
            Good points Listy, but would the Royal Navy have been vulnerable to air attack by the Luftwaffe if Germany had achieved air superiority, with about 1,500 medium and dive bombers. The Prince of Wales and Repulse were attacked by about 300 Japanese aircraft.

            I suppose if the Germans didn't have armour piecing bombs it would have made things a bit difficult for the Luftwaffe.

            I might make the effort to check those 845 pages.
            Those 300 Japanese aircraft attacked in daylight with torpedoes...the Germans have no such weapons and such are the distances between the German convoy routes and the major RN bases the major part of the RN's in-channel forces - more than a match for anything the KM can put to sea - will in action when it is still dark.
            Colonel Summers' widely quoted critique of US strategy in the Vietnam War is having a modest vogue...it is poor history, poor strategy, and poor Clausewitz to boot - Robet Komer, Survival, 27:2, p. 94.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Aussie View Post
              Good points Listy, but would the Royal Navy have been vulnerable to air attack by the Luftwaffe if Germany had achieved air superiority, with about 1,500 medium and dive bombers. The Prince of Wales and Repulse were attacked by about 300 Japanese aircraft.

              I suppose if the Germans didn't have armour piecing bombs it would have made things a bit difficult for the Luftwaffe.

              I might make the effort to check those 845 pages.
              And the Pro-sealion lot often cite Dunkirk as an example.

              at Dunkirk the DD's they attacked where stationary or under way at very slow speeds. Even then they failed to stop the Royal navy.

              Just to give you some idea of the Numbers involved.

              German navy would have been able to muster 10 DD's.

              The Royal navy in home waters alone could muster 98. So the RN wouldn't have needed to commit the heavies. And Every Plane you put in against the RN cuts down on the CAS the troops get, and seeing as the Germans had zero artillery for some time, and where relying on the Luftwaffe. There's also the thing about lack of airfield infrastructure at or near the coast to support all the needed air ops.
              Last edited by Listy; 19 Jul 07, 03:03.
              Winnie says
              ---------------------------------
              "He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

              It was an Accident."
              Herr Flick.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by thejester View Post
                Those 300 Japanese aircraft attacked in daylight with torpedoes....
                No all were armed with torpedos. There were 500 and 225kg bombs involved.
                Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

                Prayers.

                BoRG

                http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

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                • #9
                  It All Depends on Your Interpretation of The FACTS

                  German Bombers dropping German Bombs do NOT have to hit British Ships in order to sink them as is evidenced by the Damages & The Sinkings caused by such near Misses from German Bombers Dropping German Bombs on Royal Navy & Civilian Shipping @ Both Dunkirk in 1940 & @ Crete in 1941.

                  Royal Air Force or Not Withstanding SEALION would have been a MAJOR SUCCESS even if we, er, uhm, even if the Germans were defeated during the operation.

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                  • #10
                    The RAF won the Battle of Britain that was actually fought. The Luftwaffe was hoping that if they were successful in destroying the RAF, it would cause the political will of the British government to carry on the war to collapse.

                    The RN was Britain's second line of defence, an impregnable one as far as the German's were concerned, but the German's didn't even get that far in their campaign against Britain, so the RN didn't win the BoB, the RAF did.

                    ps.
                    Re, the Luftwaffe's effectiveness against the RN. How does the Luftwaffe stop the RN if it attacks the invasion fleet at night, timing its approach so it stay's out of the effective range of the Luftwaffe until nightfall

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by redcoat View Post
                      P.S.....In Relation to The Luftwaffe's effectiveness against the Royal Navy, How does the Luftwaffe stop the Royal Navy if it attacks the invasion fleet at night, timing its approach so it stay's out of the effective range of the Luftwaffe until nightfall
                      Much like The Invasion Fleet itself, a good portion of The Royal Navy will:

                      (A) Be in a Port until Nightfall Arrives.

                      (or)

                      (B) Will be forced to sail during daylight hours in order to make it to the Invasion Zone where the Invasion Fleet is located.

                      In either event, during those daylight hours available, the Luftwaffe will be inflicting as much damage as is humanely possible on all Royal Navy Vessels.

                      Yes, Yes, in addition to flying it's other 14 or so missions that are assgned to it.

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                      • #12
                        "given the numbers of mine laying ships, this is further confounded by the number of Mine-sweepers the RN has in the area."

                        Let's not forget aireal mines dropped by Luftwaffe. & Me 110's acting as fighter bombers.

                        I read recently that Brit destroyers move in a straight line & the mines are cleared by the front ship, ( by hitting them, yes).

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Purple fang View Post
                          I read recently that Brit destroyers move in a straight line & the mines are cleared by the front ship, ( by hitting them, yes).
                          British destroyers were equipped with mine sweeping gear

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Purple fang View Post
                            "given the numbers of mine laying ships, this is further confounded by the number of Mine-sweepers the RN has in the area."

                            Let's not forget aireal mines dropped by Luftwaffe. & Me 110's acting as fighter bombers.

                            I read recently that Brit destroyers move in a straight line & the mines are cleared by the front ship, ( by hitting them, yes).
                            This two was covered in the sealion thread, and then umbers still didn't tie up.

                            All the time you're off dropping mines, the same planes are not hitting the RAF and other important targets, so the RAF recovers and the Germans are bollocked.

                            That's the main point, the Germans have in no way enough stuff to do everything that they need to do.
                            Winnie says
                            ---------------------------------
                            "He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

                            It was an Accident."
                            Herr Flick.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              So the general consensus is that the Luftwaffe had next to no chance of stopping the RN from interfering with the Channel crossing, and that the BOB was definitely won by the RAF and Naval historian David Hobbs is taking major liberties.

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