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  • A German Alternative?

    A 'what-if' I have been thinking alot about lately is:

    What if the Germans would have by-passed Poland and smashed Russia, all without ever attacking in the West? If no attack on Poland- no declaration
    of war by Great Britain and France. No two front war, etc. What do y'all
    think? Was that a possible scenario at all. I feel like Hitler had his mind set
    long before with regards to smashing Russia, but only hit the West because
    of other factors.
    SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

  • #2
    Those other factors including world domination with his lunatic ideology.

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    • #3
      With no common border, how is Germany going to attack the USSR without violating another country's frontiers?
      Signing out.

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      • #4
        With only 50 odd divisions available for the attack in the east (based on the Polish invasion),...it might prove a bit dodgy.
        Last edited by The Purist; 16 Jul 07, 20:48.
        The Purist

        Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
          With no common border, how is Germany going to attack the USSR without violating another country's frontiers?
          Well Rumania bordered on Russia. To get to it the germans needed to go through Hungary.These two where allied to Germany in 1940. Let's say that they where convinced to join the germans earlier to share some booty.
          Of course the germans would have to deploy about a million or so men along a small border. It will be a very staggered formation.
          Besides in 1939 the germans would probaly not have had felt strong enough. What did they attack poland with. 63 divisions????

          It would be more handy to convince the Poles to join in an attack on Russia.This wil give the Germans more space to manouvre.

          If we are in the realm of the weird then Finland might be an option. It would have been a mess.
          Dearest of all my Friends(Vlad in max payne 2)

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          • #6
            France would obviously do the smart thing and attack Germany while they are busy in the East.

            Wait...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by owen36 View Post
              Well Rumania bordered on Russia. To get to it the germans needed to go through Hungary.These two where allied to Germany in 1940. Let's say that they where convinced to join the germans earlier to share some booty.
              Of course the germans would have to deploy about a million or so men along a small border. It will be a very staggered formation.
              Besides in 1939 the germans would probaly not have had felt strong enough. What did they attack poland with. 63 divisions????

              It would be more handy to convince the Poles to join in an attack on Russia.This wil give the Germans more space to manouvre.

              If we are in the realm of the weird then Finland might be an option. It would have been a mess.

              Nice post owen. I was thinking along these lines with postponing the attack
              on Russia, with Hungary and Rumania helping out. Maybe even Poland helping
              out too.

              I'm not quite sure what France's and Britain's response would have been.
              SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Redwolf View Post
                France would obviously do the smart thing and attack Germany while they are busy in the East.

                Wait...
                France would have done no such thing I think. When almost the entire Germany army was in Poland they half-heartily sent in some troops across the border who withdrew as soon as the few german troops started to fire on them.
                Besides the French had this big problem that they couldn't attack through Belgium and Luxembourg. So they would have to attack across the French/German border into hilly country across the Rhine.
                Besides the entire strategy of France rested on the idea of defense. The only french troops who ever moved into Germany in substantial force where those in 1944/45.
                Last edited by owen36; 16 Jul 07, 14:26.
                Dearest of all my Friends(Vlad in max payne 2)

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                • #9
                  I have read (it may not be true of course) that vehicles (especially trucks) captured from Poland were an essential resource used for the invasion of France.

                  If that is true, it would seem that an invasion of the USSR without vehicles captured from Poland, France etc would have been much harder.

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                  • #10
                    - The logistics difficulties alone would be mind boggling. I'm not sure what objectives could be reached with only 6 panzer divisions and no ability to supply the army to any depth.

                    - Poland side with the Germans? That would be highly unlikely with only 30 divisions and very few modern tanks. Besides, that would place the Germans east and west of Poland, provided the Germans could get as far north as Belorussia, what with the Pripyet Marshes make a nasty barrier to north south moves). Not something any Polish government was about to entertain.
                    The Purist

                    Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                      - The logistics difficulties alone would be mind boggling. I'm not sure what objectives could be reached with only 6 panzer divisions and no ability to supply the army to any depth.

                      - Poland side with the Germans? That would be highly unlikely with only 30 divisions and very few modern tanks. Besides, that would place the Germans east and west of Poland, provided the Germans could get as far north as Belorussia, what with the Pripyet Marshes make a nasty barrier to north south moves). Not something any Polish government was about to entertain.
                      The poles had a long tradition of enmity with Russia, in particular with the Sovjet Union. Pushing the polish borders somewhat more to the east might have been a enticing idea. In addition an other option would be to "liberate" parts of Russia and turn them into an independent states. So this is one reason.
                      About making logical decisions: a lot of Poles where expecting that they would be marching through the germany capital when war broke out, instead of the germans marching through theirs.

                      Actually I think it is all in the realm of fantasy.
                      Last edited by owen36; 17 Jul 07, 05:58.
                      Dearest of all my Friends(Vlad in max payne 2)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dgfred View Post
                        A 'what-if' I have been thinking alot about lately is:

                        What if the Germans would have by-passed Poland and smashed Russia, all without ever attacking in the West? If no attack on Poland- no declaration
                        of war by Great Britain and France. No two front war, etc. What do y'all
                        think? Was that a possible scenario at all. I feel like Hitler had his mind set
                        long before with regards to smashing Russia, but only hit the West because
                        of other factors.

                        Well wouldn't of mattered maybe if Hitler took Czech Republic Polan and smashed Russia as you said maybe they would of had a better head start and not having to wait a year to do the Battle of Britain and the peace talks might not of even taken place and Britain might of just wanted to stay out of it from the start if that makes sense but I think the French would always declare war on the Germans so wouldn't of made no difference to me
                        http://g.bf3stats.com/pc/1LP76r6C/melba_101.png

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                        • #13
                          IMHO, it's possible to argue that Germany lacked the resources for a successful invasion of the Soveit Union in the historical scenario. She certainly lacked sufficient resources in either 1939 or 1940. Even in 1941, attacking without having first secured Poland would have been an even bigger nightmare than the one they actually experienced.
                          Last edited by panther3485; 17 Jul 07, 08:55.
                          "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                          Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                            - The logistics difficulties alone would be mind boggling. I'm not sure what objectives could be reached with only 6 panzer divisions and no ability to supply the army to any depth.

                            - Poland side with the Germans? That would be highly unlikely with only 30 divisions and very few modern tanks. Besides, that would place the Germans east and west of Poland, provided the Germans could get as far north as Belorussia, what with the Pripyet Marshes make a nasty barrier to north south moves). Not something any Polish government was about to entertain.

                            What I was getting at, not sure if I posted it clearly, was if the Germans did
                            not attack the West at all and used all their resourse (then and later) to just
                            attack Russia at the most opportune time. Without attacking Poland, would
                            the West have bothered at all to declare vs Germany? Just something I was
                            pondering.
                            SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by owen36 View Post
                              France would have done no such thing I think. When almost the entire Germany army was in Poland they half-heartily sent in some troops across the border who withdrew as soon as the few german troops started to fire on them.
                              Besides the French had this big problem that they couldn't attack through Belgium and Luxembourg. So they would have to attack across the French/German border into hilly country across the Rhine.
                              Besides the entire strategy of France rested on the idea of defense. The only french troops who ever moved into Germany in substantial force where those in 1944/45.
                              I'm afraid you didn't get my joke

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