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Operation Bagraton

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  • Operation Bagraton

    On this day 60 years ago the first phase of the Soviet Summer Offensive against Germany began. Having achieved complete surprise ( Hitler had expected the Russians to attack from the Pripet marshes) the Soviet Armies swept across White Russia in the weeks that followed. The Germans formations were smashed and Army Group Centre was destroyed.
    The aniversary of this operation is getting hardly any coverage in the West compared to the d-day landings earlier this month. Yet all military analysts agree Bagraton was at least if not more important in destroying the German Army than D day was.
    Is it because we still have difficulty accepting that Stalin and his Generals were just as military adept as their Western counterparts by this stage of the war? I wonder.
    To mark the event anyway I would like to know if anyone would be interested in playing this out using a COW scenario on it?
    At around one turn per week minimum.
    Any takers?
    http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

  • #2
    Have no fear - my military history teacher ( 4 years ) in high school always celebrated June 22 - In his opinion the proof was the Soviets were the masters at mobile warfare The other history teachers hated him for it - the truth does matter sometimes He always considered the assault to start on 6/22 - not 6/21 - those were recon forces probing Wife & children going to Cape Cod for a week - I'll be happy to play the Axis
    Black & blue from the TOAW learning curve!

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    • #3
      fun

      the largest and most importatn operation of 1944. ingored by western press.
      would be in for a game.
      piero
      "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Foggy
        Have no fear - my military history teacher ( 4 years ) in high school always celebrated June 22 - In his opinion the proof was the Soviets were the masters at mobile warfare The other history teachers hated him for it - the truth does matter sometimes He always considered the assault to start on 6/22 - not 6/21 - those were recon forces probing Wife & children going to Cape Cod for a week - I'll be happy to play the Axis
        OK Foggy your On!

        I will play Europe's real Liberators against the evil Fascists.

        It will be Saturday before I can send you my first turn though. As this game has some 100 turns + its going to take some commitment to play it through so are you /will you be able to turn around say two turns per week over the next year?
        I just don't want to go say 20 turns into it and then see it fizzle out. ( Happened to me last year in another game after 73 turns!)

        BTW what is your email? Or you can catch me at :

        [email protected]
        http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by piero1971
          the largest and most importatn operation of 1944. ingored by western press.
          would be in for a game.
          piero
          Piero:

          Looks like that slot is taken but I would love to play you in another game!

          Any suggestions?
          http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm looking forward to this - I've always thought the Axis could have done better! I don't know about the comment "real liberators" - take away the allies
            ie supplies, all those fighters & AA guns arrayed against the West - Comrade Stalin would be shooting more generals for lack of offensive spirit
            Black & blue from the TOAW learning curve!

            Comment


            • #7
              Considering what the Russians did to German civilians I find it hard to consider them as "liberators".

              P.S. Karl where is our turn of Last Stand in Africa?
              "Teamwork is essential - it gives the Enemy someone else to shoot at"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Wolf
                Considering what the Russians did to German civilians I find it hard to consider them as "liberators".

                P.S. Karl where is our turn of Last Stand in Africa?
                Rick

                I sent you an email last weekend asking you the same!

                Can you remember if it's my turn or yours?

                One way or the other we can get the ball rolling again this weekend.

                Karl
                http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Wolfe
                  BTW what is your email? Or you can catch me at :

                  [email
                  how about the next time you do Bagration email me at [email protected]
                  "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Wolf
                    Considering what the Russians did to German civilians I find it hard to consider them as "liberators".
                    What if to compare what Germans did with Russian civilians???? At least specific figures, eh???????

                    Or maybe what Americans did with German civilians while massive bombing of civil towns.....
                    If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by amvas
                      What if to compare what Germans did with Russian civilians???? At least specific figures, eh???????

                      Or maybe what Americans did with German civilians while massive bombing of civil towns.....
                      I don't think any of those compare with what Stalin did to the Russian civilians.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Prester John
                        I don't think any of those compare with what Stalin did to the Russian civilians.
                        Yep, Stalin crimes against Russians (and other nations of the USSR) are muuuuuch more. They can be compared with total soviet losses in the WW2

                        Stalin crimes is a separate story and nobody is going to acquit him for them!
                        If you fire a rifle at the past, the future will fire a cannon at you.....

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