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  • Budapest 1945

    Lazlo:

    I have located the Wargame magazine on the attempted relief of Budapest in 1945 by the Germans. It is Command Magazine of Nov-Dec 1994.

    It has a number of articles on the Battle and the War included. ‘Hungary in WWII’; ‘Budapest 45’: The Bitter End’ and ‘Hungarian Units of the Waffen SS, 1944-45’.
    Also the wargame itself with around 200 counters and full map of the area around Budapest.

    Very interesting read on a battle not very well known in the West.
    http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

  • #2
    Originally posted by Wolfe Tone
    Lazlo:

    I have located the Wargame magazine on the attempted relief of Budapest in 1945 by the Germans. It is Command Magazine of Nov-Dec 1994.

    It has a number of articles on the Battle and the War included. ‘Hungary in WWII’; ‘Budapest 45’: The Bitter End’ and ‘Hungarian Units of the Waffen SS, 1944-45’.
    Also the wargame itself with around 200 counters and full map of the area around Budapest.

    Very interesting read on a battle not very well known in the West.
    Thank you for the info, but I think I have more info now than any article writer (most of the Hungarian sources are not available in the west, and even I have some info which is not well knowned in Hungary).
    I have about 200 books on Hungary in WWII, and hundreds if not thousand of maps, daily reports both sides, memoires, etc.
    Only I don't have: time. But I am at a half way to make a daily situation maps with units data (with the help of the best Hungarian historian in this field).

    Surely I plan to make some TOAW scen on that, but I need many time for that, and I am better on the historical side not on the TOAW designer side, so I need many help from the community...

    Thank you for the info again, and the interest in the WWII Hungarian events!!!

    P.S.:I am just curious, how many Konrad attempt is indicated in the magazine?
    a brain cell

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    • #3
      P.S.:I am just curious, how many Konrad attempt is indicated in the magazine?


      Three as best I can make out + one map showing the main Soviet counter offensive starting on 27 January. It has Operation Konrad begining on 1 January.
      http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Wolfe Tone
        P.S.:I am just curious, how many Konrad attempt is indicated in the magazine?


        Three as best I can make out + one map showing the main Soviet counter offensive starting on 27 January. It has Operation Konrad begining on 1 January.
        It is OK, seems it is correct! I will look for it, if you are interested I have daily maps of the situation (and of course full OOB)...

        Are you interested in the battle as I can write a longer post/article on that?
        a brain cell

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        • #5
          What I am really interested in is the fate of Hungarian POWs at the hands of the Russians. How long were they in captivity and under what conditions? Do you have anything on that?
          http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Wolfe Tone
            What I am really interested in is the fate of Hungarian POWs at the hands of the Russians. How long were they in captivity and under what conditions? Do you have anything on that?
            From my previous answer to you :

            "POW in SU: The last known came back few years ago, but it was not general. Malenkiy robot (small work) was common and lasted even 10 years as usual.
            POWs:
            from Barbarossa start+4-5days to jan1943 (before Ostrogosk-Rossosh operation): 8-10,000
            from 12jan1943 to aug1944: 95-105,000
            from aug1944 to the end of Hungarian operations (apr1945): 150,000
            and after that in Austria and Germany and Chech: 70,000 (most of them was captured by western european allied e.g. my other grandfather)

            Was dead POW camp is around 150,000-200,000. This fact are not well researched yet (even still sensitive issue).

            civils in POW(?) status: is around 290,000-300,000 "

            Some new info: the situation was very bad after the Ostrogoshk-Rossosh operation as the Soviet forces were not prepared to feed the POWs. Many died in diseas, by cold.
            I just read many died on the train to the POW camp.
            Malenkiy robot was some kind of punishment (or repayment for the losses of the Sovietunion) for the German allies (especially for the Hungarian) and not concentrated on the soldiers only.

            Civilian in POW status means:
            in the siege of Budapest the commanding officer reported double number on the enemy forces (to explain the long siege to Stalin), but in the end there was not so much troops in the counting. So he decided to capture many civilians to show them as POWs.
            Later in Germany many civilians (who was there because of the moving of the Hungarian government) were captured as POWs.
            a brain cell

            Comment


            • #7
              New book just came out over here - North America:

              "Drama between Budapest and Vienna" by Georg Maier (former deputy chief of operations, 6th SS Panzer Army). Publisher: J J Fedorowicz.

              Available at this site: www.jjfpub.mb.ca

              Don't know if you already have it or related info.
              Lots of very interesting books in English & German.
              Unite your forces in space & time, split the enemy forces spatially & defeat them at different times - Rommel

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Alkiviadis
                New book just came out over here - North America:

                "Drama between Budapest and Vienna" by Georg Maier (former deputy chief of operations, 6th SS Panzer Army). Publisher: J J Fedorowicz.

                Available at this site: www.jjfpub.mb.ca

                Don't know if you already have it or related info.
                Lots of very interesting books in English & German.
                Many of my books referring to that book, and I could reach it in the military archive library, but there are many new book based on recent research, but they are in Hungarian, until they will be translated I highly recommend it.

                Thank you! I prefer reading it English than German, so it is very good!
                a brain cell

                Comment


                • #9
                  Laci, is your partner Norbert Szamveber? He is very good, I have also met him once. I have many of his books including the one named Konrad 3. It is a very big book and I had no time to read it though. Maybe some day.
                  Laci I would be very pleased if I could see your map collection some day... Keep up the good work!!!
                  "Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.", Sun Tzu

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Artur
                    Laci, is your partner Norbert Szamveber? He is very good, I have also met him once. I have many of his books including the one named Konrad 3. It is a very big book and I had no time to read it though. Maybe some day.
                    Laci I would be very pleased if I could see your map collection some day... Keep up the good work!!!
                    Yes he is. He is a very helpful guy and a living lexicon, he can tell you all units and their strength, losses in the Hungarian theatre, so nobody can beat him in any piece of information, and he is under 30, and the deputy manager of the archive with regular research in the BAMA (the German archive).
                    The book of Konrad 3 is the best book by him, the translation of the book is in progress but can last long as money is a problem and the quality (he is perfectionist).

                    Actually too much maps I have, so my biggest problem is to find the best fitting map/book/daily report sometimes. Books and the papers are starting to bury me...
                    a brain cell

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The discussion on Hungarian pows jogged my memory a bit. Seems I recall, last I lived in Vienna, there was a story on a recently returned pow from the Soviet Union. I think the man was Hungarian, but I'm not completely sure. It seems he suffered some sort of a war related trauma in WW2. The Russians found him at some point, during or after the war, and put him in a mental institution. At some point he began to talk again and snap out of his war related state, but the doctors couldn't understand what he was saying because he wasn't speaking russian and so they thought he was still crazy. This was between 96-2000 that I heard this. Granted I probably have the facts wrong but I do remember hearing of such a POW. I suppose he wasn't a POW as much as just a mental case. I think the doctors thought he'd been a Russian soldier.

                      A strange story...
                      Even Jesus will never forgive what you do - Bob Dylan

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Menschenfresser
                        The discussion on Hungarian pows jogged my memory a bit. Seems I recall, last I lived in Vienna, there was a story on a recently returned pow from the Soviet Union. I think the man was Hungarian, but I'm not completely sure. It seems he suffered some sort of a war related trauma in WW2. The Russians found him at some point, during or after the war, and put him in a mental institution. At some point he began to talk again and snap out of his war related state, but the doctors couldn't understand what he was saying because he wasn't speaking russian and so they thought he was still crazy. This was between 96-2000 that I heard this. Granted I probably have the facts wrong but I do remember hearing of such a POW. I suppose he wasn't a POW as much as just a mental case. I think the doctors thought he'd been a Russian soldier.

                        A strange story...
                        It was in 2000.
                        He died 2 months ago...
                        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3606225.stm
                        a brain cell

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                        • #13
                          Well Lazlo, thanks again then for the info on the POWs

                          Do the books you have include any eye witness accounts by the soldiers, Hungarian, German or Russian?

                          In American and British histories of the War this is a more common feature now as most people who read on the War quickly tire of just reading about the placement of units and formations at various points in a battle. Interesting up to a point but what was it really like to be there?

                          I read in Command Magazine that only 700 out 70,000 defenders of Budapest amde it back to the Axis Front Line, is that true?
                          http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Wolfe Tone
                            Well Lazlo, thanks again then for the info on the POWs

                            Do the books you have include any eye witness accounts by the soldiers, Hungarian, German or Russian?

                            In American and British histories of the War this is a more common feature now as most people who read on the War quickly tire of just reading about the placement of units and formations at various points in a battle. Interesting up to a point but what was it really like to be there?

                            I read in Command Magazine that only 700 out 70,000 defenders of Budapest amde it back to the Axis Front Line, is that true?
                            Szamveber used only well documented eye witness accounts (so not too much), but other books has many eye witness accounts.
                            I agree with you, however I can live with data only book

                            Most recent data:
                            Defender of Budapest was 51,100 Hungarians and 41,080 Germans, the attackers were about 157,000 (so the difference is not too much as it is a urban warfare).
                            Only 629 soldiers was succesful in the outbreak from the city.

                            Source: Szamveber Norbert: Festung an der Donau/Eröd a Duna mentén (German-Hungarian language book on the Budapest siege), Koblenz 2003
                            a brain cell

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              FYI: there is a shareware game called Operation Konrad.

                              Description:
                              1945: Operation Konrad recreates the German unsuccessfull attempt to relieve the Russian siege of Budapest, the Hungarian capital, in early 1945.


                              I havent tried it and can't comment on its qualities but you can download it here:
                              http://www.fileplanet.com/files/10000/11387.shtml
                              Last edited by Kraut; 20 May 04, 09:50.
                              "The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose."

                              Henry Alfred Kissinger

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