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The Lethal lean look of German ‘kit’: Me109, Schmeissers, U-Boats, Dorniers, Panzers

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  • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
    Heh, the German side was the side of despair., all right. Personal story: at a modelling convention a few years back, a really nerdy looking guy had parked right out front an old VW 181 "Thing" , converted to a "Kubelwagen" in Afrrika Korps markings. I asked him why he would do such a thing, and he replied that he felt really cool driving around in it. Different strokes.

    But you wouldn't have a problem with someone driving a hummer or a Jeep though? In the end you could be seen as glorifying killing

    Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
    Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
    Barbarossa Derailed I & II
    Battle of Kalinin October 1941

    Comment


    • The way I see it- given how ignorant of politics and politically unmotivated much of the soldiers in WW2 were- there is not much justification to having a visceral reaction over someone making a King Tiger model.

      This is different then say, someone making dolls of concentration camp commandants.
      Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
      Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
      Barbarossa Derailed I & II
      Battle of Kalinin October 1941

      Comment


      • I don't have a "visceral reaction" to somebody making a King Tiger model except boredom and puzzlement. I stay away from the armor section of model shows. What I have a "visceral reaction" to is if they don't build anything else.
        Will no one tell me what she sings?--
        Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
        For old, unhappy, far-off things,
        And battles long ago:
        -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post

          Started modelling at the tender age of 8 years. My first two model kits were planes; a Bf 109G and a Spitfire Mk. IX. The hobby mushroomed out from there and has been a lifetime passion; although in more recent years the combination of work, family and other interests - such as ACG - has pushed it into the background somewhat.
          Anyway, I can't recall at any time in my life thinking German kit - planes, tanks, ships or whatever - was in general somehow better looking or "cooler" than that of the other main participant nations of WW2. Some individual German items, yes, to be sure; but not because they were German. For every German or other Axis nations item I can recall liking the look of, I perceived just as many if not more among the Allied nations looking as good; or even, in a few cases, better.
          For example, to my eyes and in my perception, no other twin-engine combat plane - Axis or Allied - looks quite a good as the Mosquito. A few come close, though.
          Of course, there are some German kit items that please my eye a great deal; not least among them being the Panther tank. No matter how good or bad it actually was in real life, I've always liked the look of that beast.
          For a visually pleasing warship, I'd find the American Iowa class (e.g. Missouri) hard to beat; the German Scharnhorst class battlecruisers coming a close second for looks, IMO.
          German WW2 models out-sell Allied because whatever European theatre you're in, there are the Germans - hogging the limelight. In fact, you've got to work really hard to find an aspect of the "European" war that didn't include Germans. The next problem is that most of us model what is available, and until a few years ago there were some almighty great gaps - try doing Case Gelb or Case Rotte. Don't start me on artillery, tractors or transports

          Next is camouflage - it's more fun/challenging than monochrome. Once again, generally only the Germans were using it (ground forces). Most air forces knew the benefits of disruptive patterns, even if only when the craft was on the tarmac.

          But the real problem is if you go to the local hobby shop with the intention of modelling something out of the ordinary, they're not going to have it

          Comment


          • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post

            Started modelling at the tender age of 8 years. My first two model kits were planes; a Bf 109G and a Spitfire Mk. IX. The hobby mushroomed out from there and has been a lifetime passion; although in more recent years the combination of work, family and other interests - such as ACG - has pushed it into the background somewhat.
            Anyway, I can't recall at any time in my life thinking German kit - planes, tanks, ships or whatever - was in general somehow better looking or "cooler" than that of the other main participant nations of WW2. Some individual German items, yes, to be sure; but not because they were German. For every German or other Axis nations item I can recall liking the look of, I perceived just as many if not more among the Allied nations looking as good; or even, in a few cases, better.
            For example, to my eyes and in my perception, no other twin-engine combat plane - Axis or Allied - looks quite a good as the Mosquito. A few come close, though.
            Of course, there are some German kit items that please my eye a great deal; not least among them being the Panther tank. No matter how good or bad it actually was in real life, I've always liked the look of that beast.
            For a visually pleasing warship, I'd find the American Iowa class (e.g. Missouri) hard to beat; the German Scharnhorst class battlecruisers coming a close second for looks, IMO.
            Certainly the IOWA class battleships were, in my opinion, the best-looking capital ships ever, and surely the Spitfire was aesthetically pleasing aircraft ever constructed.
            (But I still fancy those Hugo Boss uniforms !)
            "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
            Samuel Johnson.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
              I don't have a "visceral reaction" to somebody making a King Tiger model except boredom and puzzlement. I stay away from the armor section of model shows. What I have a "visceral reaction" to is if they don't build anything else.
              You certainly are fixated on making sure we get the point that you aren't impressed by German armor. What part of "you have your opinion and others have theirs" is hard to comprehend?

              Is someone dictating to you what your likes should be? If not, why do you feel the need to criticize their choices?

              Personally I left military modelling in the 80's, after modelling "what-if" stuff that didn't make it to the battlefields purely because it was a) different and b) no one else was showing it, and went into fantasy modelling, far more scope and far more fascinating. And no...I don't mean that Swords and Boobs crap that obsesses teen-agers. I mean creating alternate worlds and alternate beings and the machines they might have used, such as a spherical land-rover for four-armed toad-like beings! That one was fun!

              And now I model trains but with a fantasy touch - I model the world of Doc Brown, Marty "Eastwood" and Nikola Tesla as it might have been had they collaborated.

              But I never turn my nose up at the choices of others. We all would rather do what we enjoy most, rather than what others deem "appropriate".
              Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                That's a one-legged generality at best. I built military models for a number of years, and I never "got off on being a Nazi", which is a very foolish thing to claim.

                Foreign kits have an added attraction because of their novelty, and the German armor especially had a particular look to it lacking in American and British kits. For one thing, their later armor got a lot bigger and more powerful and American armor did not. The Germans camouflaged their stuff in interesting ways and the Americans did not camouflage at all, nor did the British. And so it goes.

                German modelers, however, seemed to prefer Soviet and American stuff in the main. However, they did not "get off on being American or Soviet".

                Currently I model c. 1900 Western steam trains. All over the world the most popular modeling is that of early American Western trains, especially narrow gauge, because no one else had anything like them. The modelers range from Europe to Japan to Australia and they all prefer American Western steam, rather than the abundant models of their own nations. One of the best such modelers, however, is a Russian, whose work has been featured in the rail hobby magazines many time over the years and who has published his own book and DVD. "Different" has a very strong attraction.

                The one thing you got right with absolute certainly, though, is that what we like is our personal preference and opinion, and is neither "right" nor "wrong" - it's just "ours". And our reasons for liking something are also neither "right" nor "wrong" - they are simply "our reasons", period. Would you argue with someone about their favorite color? Because you can't win.
                (My bold in your quote) I agree with a lot of what you say but not all of it. For example, it's not really accurate to say the British and Americans didn't camouflage their tanks at all.
                It's probably more accurate to say that when they camouflaged their tanks (as they sometimes did) they were usually noticeably less elaborate with their patterns (when they had them) than we typically see with the more sophisticated German camo patterns. Even with that, it's possible to find a few exceptions. It's also true that for much of the time, the Western Allies tended to favor plain colous such as olive drab and khaki; so I think this is most of the basis for your statement.
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                • "visceral reaction"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                    You certainly are fixated on making sure we get the point that you aren't impressed by German armor. What part of "you have your opinion and others have theirs" is hard to comprehend?

                    Is someone dictating to you what your likes should be? If not, why do you feel the need to criticize their choices?

                    Personally I left military modelling in the 80's, after modelling "what-if" stuff that didn't make it to the battlefields purely because it was a) different and b) no one else was showing it, and went into fantasy modelling, far more scope and far more fascinating. And no...I don't mean that Swords and Boobs crap that obsesses teen-agers. I mean creating alternate worlds and alternate beings and the machines they might have used, such as a spherical land-rover for four-armed toad-like beings! That one was fun!

                    And now I model trains but with a fantasy touch - I model the world of Doc Brown, Marty "Eastwood" and Nikola Tesla as it might have been had they collaborated.

                    But I never turn my nose up at the choices of others. We all would rather do what we enjoy most, rather than what others deem "appropriate".
                    Meh, they can model it all day long as long as I don't have too look at it
                    Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                    Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                    For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                    And battles long ago:
                    -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post

                      Meh, they can model it all day long as long as I don't have too look at it
                      As I have said repeatedly, that's your choice, and it's ours to do otherwise.

                      Stop obesessing.

                      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        As I have said repeatedly, that's your choice, and it's ours to do otherwise.

                        Stop obesessing.
                        Excuse me, but that is what this thread is about. Not my obsessions but others.
                        Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                        Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                        For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                        And battles long ago:
                        -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post

                          Excuse me, but that is what this thread is about. Not my obsessions but others.
                          Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
                            Agree wholeheartedly. Love the phrase "the glamour of evil." As I love telling fanbois, Nazis are like T. rex. Big, scary, and dead. I'll never forget visiting the USAF museum in Dayton, OH. There were great, rare aircraft there (B-10, XB-70, F-117) but what were the fanbois photographing (with their big, expensive cameras on their big, ugly tripods?) The ME-262! About which you can get a zillion full-color closeup books. One of them was laying on his back, photographing the wheelwells, Lord save us! I put on my best dumb-girl-who's-only-here-cause-my-boyfriend-dragged-me look and cornered a couple of them, and asked them why they were so interested in Nazi planes.
                            They got this solemn, stuffed-frog look (they aren't really used to talking to girls) and one of them said, "We are just interested in the technology we defeated."
                            I then snarled, "You do know that those Jumo engines were only good for one mission before they had to be switched out, don't you? How good a technology is that?"
                            According to Col. Russell Schleeh** USAF(rtd) in the following "Frontiers of Flight" (Discovery Channel) video series, in this episode concentrating on the development of the early jet aircraft and engines:

                            @47.00 Discussing the Me262, one of which he flew in the US post war:

                            [.....]
                            Shortcomings
                            [.....]
                            It had 20 hour engines - you had to change the engines at about 20 hours
                            [.....]
                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWqxk6gM3r4


                            You might benefit in future discussions if you make use of such educational and informative material.

                            **A 1947 graduate of the Air Materiel Command Flight Performance School, Schleeh was the Chief of Bomber and of Fighter Flight Test at Wright Field, Ohio.


                            Is the museum that you visited where you were opining on the engine life of the Me262 at the same place as where Colonel Schleeh graduated from DC?

                            I believe that it is.

                            Just to be "on point" with this thread, the Me 262 was one of only about 10 model aircraft that I ever made.

                            To me, it is one of the most appealing aircraft that I have ever seen.

                            To paraphrase the terms of this thread:

                            It was a lethal looking piece of German kit.

                            My father, who fought the Nazi's as a DEMS gunner with the Royal Australian Navy in WW2, had no problem whatsoever with me building a model aircraft with German markings on it.

                            http://navyvic.net/associations/dems/dems.html

                            I made a 109F in desert camouflage as well.
                            Last edited by At ease; 23 Jul 18, 13:13.
                            "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
                            "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

                            "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
                            — Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

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                            • This discussion about military modelling being over-represented by German examples is very interesting.

                              I must say that just because it's 'look' is appealing and even in some instances fascinating in no way means people modelling the stuff have or are in danger of crossing over to 'the Dark Side' .
                              Just a 'natural attraction' to something..........a tad wicked maybe??
                              Speaking of the Dark Side the German WWII influence is of course clearly visible in the 'Star Wars' franchise ('white' storm-troopers, peaked hats, , the Empire etc) and other SF movies like 'Star-ship Troopers' (a savage parody of militarism -using Nazi-sytle iconography and thinly disguised Nazi ideas).

                              BTW US and UK tanks were normally not camouflaged because camouflage was entirely unnecessary for Western Allied 'kit' post North Africa due to the overwhelming numerical advantage they had in AFV's (and planes, trucks, artillery, resources etc. etc.).

                              Regards lodestar


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                              • Actually a lot of vehicles and personal equipment got a coat of whitewash when winter came. Americans often raided white sheets from Linen closets. The 101st Airborne had many men on leave to France when the Ardennes started and they had to "borrow" weapons and field equipment from guys heading to the rear. The guys from the 28th Infantry Division seemed to be the most generous.

                                Pruitt
                                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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