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What is the most overlooked, undervalued, underestimated aspect of WWII?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
    You already have 700 pages that address this topic and such arguments. How can one have such a strong opinion when they don't even read about the subject at hand?:
    Indeed :

    "The scale of Chinaís involvement in the war was massive. Chiang, for example, fielded four million troops at the Nationalistís height, while China as a whole lost an estimated 14 million in the war. Had China folded, Japanís capacity to fight the U.S. or even the Soviets would have been vastly amplified."

    https://psmag.com/china-lost-14-mill...9d8#.nosmw421t

    For front size I let you chek a globe. China is the big blob south of Russia and north of Vietnam just west of Japan to Afghanistan...

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    • #32
      The soviets made the human sacrifice to defeat Germany but the idea that they won the war is just socialist fantasy. A simplistic fantasy at that. If Stalin had not made a pack with Hitler and had prepared for an invasion the war could have been shortened and millions of lives saved.

      During the war 86,000 factory workers died in the U.S. while 3 million Soviet civilians died and another million died in Soviet prison camps. There doesn't seem to be any specific figured on how many factory workers died in the Soviet Union but I'm sure it was a huge number. We do know that Stalin was directly or indirectly responsible for many more of his citizens dying than there were Germans killed by Soviet forces.

      Could the U.S. and Britain defeated the Germans on their own? The answer is most probably due to technology and isolation. How many atomic weapons it would have taken to bring Hitler down is not known but it is certain that he could not maintain an aerial shield over Germany. On the other hand Russia barely held out and if the entire resources of Germany would have been available to Hitler it seems likely that the Soviet Union would have collapsed. This has a lot to do with Geography since the U.S. and Britain are separate from the European continent but it also has to do with the way Germany and the Soviets fought with little regard for casualties.

      One of the little appreciated lessons of WWII is the total disregard for the live of their own citizens that develops in collectivist socialist countries such as Germany and Russia. The idea that fascist socialism and Soviet style socialism are significantly different is propaganda produced by Western Marxists. It doesn't matter if you are being killed by a nationalist evil or an international evil dead is dead. Hanging your hat on racism as the moral difference is simple sophistry but makes for good propaganda.
      We hunt the hunters

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      • #33
        Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
        The idea that fascist socialism and Soviet style socialism are significantly different is propaganda produced by Western Marxists.
        The peg usually used to hang that sort of nonsense is the use of 'Socialism' in National Socialism. Now if we can find a way to link Islam to Nazism we can have all our bogey men in one basket!
        Last edited by m kenny; 23 Jan 17, 21:27.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by m kenny View Post
          The peg usually used to hang that sort of nonsense is the use of 'Socialism' in National Socialism. Now if we can find a way to link Islam to Nazism we can have all our bogey men in one basket!

          We can indeed do that because Islam is fundamentally a theocratic religion that imposes no distinction between civil and religious issues. In so far as a theocracy fundamentally is a collectivist philosophy it has similarities with national socialism and international socialism. There is no individual freedom in any religion, everyone must adhere to the dogma or be an outcast something we see time and again in communist dictatorships. Of course Islam is necessarily a dictatorship as well because the dogma calls for a supreme ruler.
          We hunt the hunters

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          • #35
            Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
            Of course Islam is necessarily a dictatorship as well because the dogma calls for a supreme ruler.
            Indubitably...




            The long toll of the brave
            Is not lost in darkness
            Over the fruitful earth
            And athwart the seas
            Hath passed the light of noble deeds
            Unquenchable forever.

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            • #36
              The portable food ration. For the first time, most militaries were providing troops in the field some sort of standardized, portable, food ration that they could carry with them wherever they went. It was a big improvement on the often improvised or very marginal portable foods available in previous wars.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by wolfhnd View Post
                The soviets made the human sacrifice to defeat Germany but the idea that they won the war is just socialist fantasy. A simplistic fantasy at that. If Stalin had not made a pack with Hitler and had prepared for an invasion the war could have been shortened and millions of lives saved.

                During the war 86,000 factory workers died in the U.S. while 3 million Soviet civilians died and another million died in Soviet prison camps. There doesn't seem to be any specific figured on how many factory workers died in the Soviet Union but I'm sure it was a huge number. We do know that Stalin was directly or indirectly responsible for many more of his citizens dying than there were Germans killed by Soviet forces.

                Could the U.S. and Britain defeated the Germans on their own? The answer is most probably due to technology and isolation. How many atomic weapons it would have taken to bring Hitler down is not known but it is certain that he could not maintain an aerial shield over Germany. On the other hand Russia barely held out and if the entire resources of Germany would have been available to Hitler it seems likely that the Soviet Union would have collapsed. This has a lot to do with Geography since the U.S. and Britain are separate from the European continent but it also has to do with the way Germany and the Soviets fought with little regard for casualties.

                One of the little appreciated lessons of WWII is the total disregard for the live of their own citizens that develops in collectivist socialist countries such as Germany and Russia. The idea that fascist socialism and Soviet style socialism are significantly different is propaganda produced by Western Marxists. It doesn't matter if you are being killed by a nationalist evil or an international evil dead is dead. Hanging your hat on racism as the moral difference is simple sophistry but makes for good propaganda.
                www.histours.ru

                Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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                • #38
                  Hmmmm...Maybe the Saar Offensive?

                  Very few casual history students know that France had invaded Germany in 1940 before Hitler had launched his invasion of France. The very cautious French advanced a few kilometers into Germany before realizing it was not worth it and they stopped. A German city was captured. German defenses had been fairly weak and I understand many French casulaties resulted from stepping on S-mines, not active opposition. I don't think the Germans took this invasion seriously...


                  "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
                  --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Metryll View Post
                    Indeed :

                    "The scale of Chinaís involvement in the war was massive. Chiang, for example, fielded four million troops at the Nationalistís height, while China as a whole lost an estimated 14 million in the war. Had China folded, Japanís capacity to fight the U.S. or even the Soviets would have been vastly amplified."

                    https://psmag.com/china-lost-14-mill...9d8#.nosmw421t

                    For front size I let you chek a globe. China is the big blob south of Russia and north of Vietnam just west of Japan to Afghanistan...
                    Does this book contain good maps? Still haven't seen any from this area.
                    "Keep Calm. Use Less X's"

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by MonsterZero View Post
                      Hmmmm...Maybe the Saar Offensive?

                      Very few casual history students know that France had invaded Germany in 1940 before Hitler had launched his invasion of France. The very cautious French advanced a few kilometers into Germany before realizing it was not worth it and they stopped. A German city was captured. German defenses had been fairly weak and I understand many French casulaties resulted from stepping on S-mines, not active opposition. I don't think the Germans took this invasion seriously...

                      It was not in 1940, but in September 1939. In October 1939 the French withdrew.
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saar_Offensive
                      "Keep Calm. Use Less X's"

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by dmf01 View Post
                        Does this book contain good maps? Still haven't seen any from this area.
                        Sorry I don't own the book. But given scarcity of internet resources on this topic, I guess that anyone interested would take wathever is at hand

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by cbo View Post
                          ... In November 1942, Marshall had to reduce the planned size of the US Army by more than 10% and cancel the organization of 14 divisions that Marshall had expected to be equipped and ready in June 1943.

                          ...
                          I have read that the US originally planned for I believe 230 army divisions,
                          which was cut down to I believe less than 100. Quite a bit more than 10%.

                          I do not know too many details, could anyone elaborate?
                          "The good old hockey game is the best game you can name
                          and the best game you can name is the good old hockey game"

                          - Stompin' Tom Connors - The Hockey Song

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by HMan View Post
                            I have read that the US originally planned for I believe 230 army divisions,
                            which was cut down to I believe less than 100. Quite a bit more than 10%.

                            I do not know too many details, could anyone elaborate?
                            IIRC 100 divisions were planned with 90 actually formed excluding Marines divisions. Creation was also progressive and US Army had fewer Divisions for most of war. I'd say that may be 10% of ETO divisions entered theater after DDay.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by HMan View Post
                              I have read that the US originally planned for I believe 230 army divisions,
                              which was cut down to I believe less than 100. Quite a bit more than 10%.

                              I do not know too many details, could anyone elaborate?
                              http://www.history.army.mil/books/70-7_15.htm
                              Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                              Hyperwar, Whats New
                              World War II Resources
                              The best place in the world to "work".

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                                Nobody likes there myths challenged :-).

                                Russia defeated Hitler and it is likely if Hitler had not been obsessed with invading the East Britain may have fallen. The question however is if Russia alone could have defeated Hitler.

                                There was never however a scenario in which Russia was not going to be invaded. Win or lose Germany was going to be depleted by invading Russia and Hitler's dream of the vast resources were not going to offset the losses because Russia had always deployed a scorched earth retreat when invaded.

                                So we can establish that there is no realistic scenario in which Britain is invaded. There is also no realistic scenario in which Germany is not going to break itself in the East. There is also no realistic scenario in which the U.S. had to fight a defense war in the Pacific.

                                That leaves us with only one semi realistic scenario and that is Germany defeating Russia. The only way that was going to happen is if there was never born or elected a man named Winston Churchill. If Britain had made a peace agreement with Hitler the massive amount of additional forces freed up would make a 1944 defeat of Russia possible.

                                The only way the Axis are then defeated is by turning Europe radioactive. It is a long shot for sure because if Britain capitulated most of the remaining free nations may have followed suit. It is also unlikely that the U.S. could have built enough nuclear weapons before Germany had their own. However unlikely this scenario is it is still more likely than Russia winning on it's own.

                                I would argue that the war played out pretty much the way Yatomoto predicted. To some extent the alternative histories are always fantasy. The piece of history most underrated is the defeat of the Japanese at Khalkhin Gol.

                                If the Russians would have had to fight on two fronts they very well may have lost. So while the instrumental rule Russia played in defeating Hitler should go unchallenged some of the key elements are often omitted from the history books
                                We hunt the hunters

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