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What is the most overlooked, undervalued, underestimated aspect of WWII?

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  • Originally posted by lodestar View Post
    Well an interesting choice.
    But really just a one-off decision rather than a main 'aspect' which is what I'm interested in.
    Still unable to Post from home!

    Regards
    lodestar
    Hi ls, well looking at your original question again and giving it further thought, how about 'The stubbornness of the Ordinary soldier of any particular Nation to know and accept that he is beaten.' lcm1
    'By Horse by Tram'.


    I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
    " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lodestar View Post
      Well an interesting choice.
      But really just a one-off decision rather than a main 'aspect' which is what I'm interested in.
      You were interested in something in particular? I thought you were just showing off again

      @lcm1: always excepting certain Italian formations BUT!

      I think it is underreported (and I would certainly read a book about) individual citizens of Nazi-occupied countries and how they came to end up fighting on the allied side. Gosh, a whole division of Poles? How the heck did that happen? (and I am sincere in asking). I was just reading through a link on another thread how the Grom class DD's ended up under the British flag. Jan De Hartog wrote a novel (The Captain) about a Dutch tug and its exploits after the fall of the Netherlands. Surely there are many, many such stories.
      Will no one tell me what she sings?--
      Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
      For old, unhappy, far-off things,
      And battles long ago:
      -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
        You were interested in something in particular? I thought you were just showing off again

        @lcm1: always excepting certain Italian formations BUT!

        I think it is underreported (and I would certainly read a book about) individual citizens of Nazi-occupied countries and how they came to end up fighting on the allied side. Gosh, a whole division of Poles? How the heck did that happen? (and I am sincere in asking). I was just reading through a link on another thread how the Grom class DD's ended up under the British flag. Jan De Hartog wrote a novel (The Captain) about a Dutch tug and its exploits after the fall of the Netherlands. Surely there are many, many such stories.
        What else can I say but, Ken
        'By Horse by Tram'.


        I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
        " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
          What else can I say but, Ken
          Will no one tell me what she sings?--
          Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
          For old, unhappy, far-off things,
          And battles long ago:
          -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
            You were interested in something in particular? I thought you were just showing off again

            @lcm1: always excepting certain Italian formations BUT!

            I think it is underreported (and I would certainly read a book about) individual citizens of Nazi-occupied countries and how they came to end up fighting on the allied side. Gosh, a whole division of Poles? How the heck did that happen? (and I am sincere in asking). .
            When the USSR occupied Poland up to the old Curzon line in 1939 they took a substantial number of POWs who were treated very badly (and many officers murdered in cold blood). With the German attack on the the USSR in 1941 a treraty was signed with the Polish government in exile in London and the POWs released and reformed into a Polish force. However for understandable reasons many were not very keen on fighting alongside the Soviets and the Red Army didn't trust them in turn. Churchill had a pressing need for reinforcements in the Mediterranean/Middle East theatre and so it was agreed that about two thirds of them would be transfered there via Persia under General Anders. The remaining third was formed into Berlings Army and did fight alongside the Red Army. In 1939 numbers of Poles had managed to escape via neutral countries and ended up first in France and then later in Britain and were also formed into a Polish fighting force.
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

            Comment


            • Further to my above post

              40,000 Polish soldiers were moved from Russian territory to the Mediterranean. I would recommend
              Martin Williams, From Warsaw to Rome: General Anders' Exiled Polish Army in the Second World War, Pen and Sword, Barnsley, 2017

              After the war some of them settled in and around Bradford. I met some in the 60s
              Last edited by MarkV; 15 May 18, 09:23.
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
                You were interested in something in particular? I thought you were just showing off again

                @lcm1: always excepting certain Italian formations BUT!

                I think it is underreported (and I would certainly read a book about) individual citizens of Nazi-occupied countries and how they came to end up fighting on the allied side. Gosh, a whole division of Poles? How the heck did that happen? (and I am sincere in asking). I was just reading through a link on another thread how the Grom class DD's ended up under the British flag. Jan De Hartog wrote a novel (The Captain) about a Dutch tug and its exploits after the fall of the Netherlands. Surely there are many, many such stories.
                Three Polish destroyers, Błyskawica, Burza, and Grom, were part of the so-called Peking Plan, which involved them being transferred from the Baltic to British waters before the outbreak of war, the reason being that the Kriegsmarine had naval superiority in the Baltic, and the life-expectancy of the three boats once war was declared was short. The plan was authorised on 26 August, 1939, and the three boats sailed on the afternoon of 28 August. En route, they actually encountered a German light cruiser and destroyer, but as war had not yet been declared there was no exchange of fire.

                By the time they learned of the declaration of war, around 0925 on 1 September, they were in the North Sea, and at 1300 they were met by HMS Wanderer & HMS Wallace, who escorted them into Leith.

                Grom was subsequently lost during the Norwegian campaign, on 4 May, 1940, but Burza & Błyskawica survived the war. Błyskawica is now a museum ship in Gdynia.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
                  Three Polish destroyers, Błyskawica, Burza, and Grom, were part of the so-called Peking Plan, which involved them being transferred from the Baltic to British waters before the outbreak of war, the reason being that the Kriegsmarine had naval superiority in the Baltic, and the life-expectancy of the three boats once war was declared was short. The plan was authorised on 26 August, 1939, and the three boats sailed on the afternoon of 28 August. En route, they actually encountered a German light cruiser and destroyer, but as war had not yet been declared there was no exchange of fire.

                  By the time they learned of the declaration of war, around 0925 on 1 September, they were in the North Sea, and at 1300 they were met by HMS Wanderer & HMS Wallace, who escorted them into Leith.

                  Grom was subsequently lost during the Norwegian campaign, on 4 May, 1940, but Burza & Błyskawica survived the war. Błyskawica is now a museum ship in Gdynia.
                  Thanks for post, but are you sure it was 28th, not the 30th August?

                  naval-history page gives this date
                  Wednesday, 30 August
                  ...
                  Polish destroyers sail for Britain - BLYSKAWICA, BURZA, GROM departed Gdynia in Operation "Pekin." It had been decided to get them away from Poland rather than have them destroyed without any opportunity to do damage in return. They were ordered that should German ships be encountered while en route, BURZA, the oldest of the three, would fight a delaying action and allow the other two to escape. Shortly after leaving port, they were sighted by U.31 north of Hela.
                  Still on the 30th, the destroyers first encountered destroyers BRUNO HEINEMANN, ERICH STEINBRINCK, FRIEDRICH ECKHOLDT, FRIEDRICH IHN on patrol between Bornholm and the Bay of Danzig and then, on the 31st, light cruiser KÖNIGSBERG near Falsterbo Light Vessel. Although the Polish and German ships trained their guns on each other, neither opened fire. The last sighting was by U.6 on Kattegat patrol later on the morning of the 31st, but contact was soon lost. Otherwise, the passage was uneventful!
                  The Polish ships were joined by destroyers WALLACE and WANDERER 30 miles off May Island, and they all arrived safely at Leith in the Firth of Forth at 1730 on 1 September. From there, the Polish destroyers departed Rosyth on 6 September and arrived at Plymouth on the 9th.
                  http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-3908-03AUG.htm
                  "Keep Calm. Use Less X's"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lodestar View Post
                    Well an interesting choice.
                    But really just a one-off decision rather than a main 'aspect' which is what I'm interested in.
                    But it is emblematic of how the Allied naval commanders were willing to take risks that the Axis naval commanders, excepting Yamamoto, seemed adverse to taking. I guess we could except submarine commanders too.
                    Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

                    "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                      40,000 Polish soldiers were moved from Russian territory to the Mediterranean. I would recommend
                      Martin Williams, From Warsaw to Rome: General Anders' Exiled Polish Army in the Second World War, Pen and Sword, Barnsley, 2017
                      Thanks very much! I have put it on the list!
                      Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                      Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                      For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                      And battles long ago:
                      -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by RichardS View Post
                        But it is emblematic of how the Allied naval commanders were willing to take risks that the Axis naval commanders, excepting Yamamoto, seemed adverse to taking. I guess we could except submarine commanders too.
                        I would say the German invasion of Norway was a pretty
                        risky naval move.
                        "The good old hockey game is the best game you can name
                        and the best game you can name is the good old hockey game"

                        - Stompin' Tom Connors - The Hockey Song

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dmf01 View Post
                          Thanks for post, but are you sure it was 28th, not the 30th August?

                          naval-history page gives this date

                          http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-3908-03AUG.htm

                          My mistake, due to incompetent typing. The ships actually sailed at 1415 on 29 August, having received the order to execute Operation Peking at 1255.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by HMan View Post
                            I would say the German invasion of Norway was a pretty risky naval move.
                            Under orders from the OKW and OKM and not a Captain/Admiral at sea decision. Otherwise I agree it was 100% a risky move and one the German fleet paid dearly for.
                            Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

                            "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

                            Comment


                            • The captains of German auxiliary cruisers (converted merchant ships)
                              took some pretty bold risks at sea, such as mining the strait between
                              the 2 islands of NZ.

                              One of the boldest I'm aware of is Orion sinking the NZ freighter Turakina
                              on Aug. 20, 1940. This was about 250 miles W. of NZ. It was a
                              fight of about 40 minutes. Then the Orion's captain took 5 hours to
                              rescue survivors, sacrificing 60 miles of escape distance. The crew could
                              hear Allied cruisers in Wellington and Sydney recalling their men from liberty.

                              The Germans had no idea if another Allied ship was just over the horizon,
                              observing radio silence, so it must have been absolutely terrifying.


                              Another possible example of an Axis naval CO taking huge risks at
                              sea was "Tenacious" Tanaka (sp?). I don't have time to research
                              now, but IIRC from prior reading he pushed some 14 transports
                              to Guadacanal in Nov. '42 in conditions of absolute Allied air
                              control. Most or all of the ships were sunk.
                              "The good old hockey game is the best game you can name
                              and the best game you can name is the good old hockey game"

                              - Stompin' Tom Connors - The Hockey Song

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by HMan View Post
                                The captains of German auxiliary cruisers (converted merchant ships)
                                took some pretty bold risks at sea, such as mining the strait between
                                the 2 islands of NZ.

                                One of the boldest I'm aware of is Orion sinking the NZ freighter Turakina
                                on Aug. 20, 1940. This was about 250 miles W. of NZ. It was a
                                fight of about 40 minutes. Then the Orion's captain took 5 hours to
                                rescue survivors, sacrificing 60 miles of escape distance. The crew could
                                hear Allied cruisers in Wellington and Sydney recalling their men from liberty.

                                The Germans had no idea if another Allied ship was just over the horizon,
                                observing radio silence, so it must have been absolutely terrifying.


                                Another possible example of an Axis naval CO taking huge risks at
                                sea was "Tenacious" Tanaka (sp?). I don't have time to research
                                now, but IIRC from prior reading he pushed some 14 transports
                                to Guadacanal in Nov. '42 in conditions of absolute Allied air
                                control. Most or all of the ships were sunk.
                                At least one of those cruisers (and possibly more) reached the Pacific by travelling through the North East Passage escorted by Soviet ice breakers, the USSR breaking every international law regarding neutrality during 1939/41
                                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                                Comment

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