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What is the most overlooked, undervalued, underestimated aspect of WWII?

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  • Originally posted by Rojik View Post
    Oh agreed X10000. Poland's agony is a story little told, but often ignored, part of that horrible war.
    Consider the popularity of the movie (and book) Sophie's Choice

    ...history is written by the victors...
    May have been true, once, but I have read books written by and translated into English, by Halder, Manstein, Galland, and Speer. Losers, all, except in the royalties department.
    Will no one tell me what she sings?--
    Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
    For old, unhappy, far-off things,
    And battles long ago:
    -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

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    • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
      Actually, the British were hardly first either... Even the Germans figured it out for Seelöwe...

      https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...8276&start=480

      But, even for Normandy, the US was providing a good chunk of the materials, and if Captain (later Rear Admiral) Edward Ellsburg USN (see The Far Shore is to be believed, that the US played a major role in just making it happen at all.



      . D-Day itself
      Like the British could have pulled it off by themselves. Were there any British only major amphibious assaults in WW 2?

      . Victory in Burma
      Well, that's not because the British did it. It's more like the rest of the Pacific war pretty much debilitated the Japanese first.

      . Motorizing the Soviet Army
      "Studebaker" was a Russian nickname for a truck for quite a while after WW 2, not "Bedford." Maybe that's because the US sent 501,660 motor vehicles to the Soviets while the British sent 4020...

      . Saving Paris in 1918
      Well, that certainly wasn't British doing.

      . Defeating Hitler
      Joint effort of the USSR, US, and British Commonwealth in that order.
      I have discovered one thing T.A. you just hate the idea that it is just possible that the U.S of A may not be first at something!! lcm1
      'By Horse by Tram'.


      I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
      " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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      • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
        I have discovered one thing T.A. you just hate the idea that it is just possible that the U.S of A may not be first at something!! lcm1
        Not at all. I just want to point out that everything that's "the best" isn't British and that Britain on their own generally hasn't won major wars.
        Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 13 Feb 18, 14:28.

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        • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          . Saving Paris in 1918
          Well, that certainly wasn't British doing.
          Not that there doesn't already exist a debate on whether or not Paris was truly under threat, but otherwise you're right....it was the French.
          You'll live, only the best get killed.

          -General Charles de Gaulle

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          • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

            . Saving Paris in 1918
            Well, that certainly wasn't British doing.
            Paris wasn't under threat in 1918, 1914 yes. 1917 Britain saved France when the French army mutinied and in 1918 stemmed the German March offensive and then broke the German army at Amiens. If Britain had not stood firm in 1940/41 there would have been no D Day
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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            • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
              Paris wasn't under threat in 1918, 1914 yes. 1917 Britain saved France when the French army mutinied and in 1918 stemmed the German March offensive and then broke the German army at Amiens. If Britain had not stood firm in 1940/41 there would have been no D Day
              French Army did not mutinied in 1917. Soldiers did not refused to defend, they refused to attack in costly and fruitless attack.

              French Iére Armée (Debenay) fought at Amiens.

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              • Originally posted by Metryll View Post
                French Army did not mutinied in 1917. Soldiers did not refused to defend, they refused to attack in costly and fruitless attack.

                French Iére Armée (Debenay) fought at Amiens.
                Well why then were 23, 385 men court martialed for mutiny? There are many accounts by French soldiers that describe men refusing to obey any orders from their officers and general disorder and chaos so that the units were as incapable of defence as offence. Private Louis Barthas of the 296th infantry gives a good account as do others. The BEF had to take over French sectors of the Front.

                Whilst both French and Americans were involved at Amiens it was overwhelmingly a British Imperial show.
                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                • Originally posted by BF69 View Post
                  Bit tough on the Poles, who fought from start to finish.
                  Oh yes, I was generalizing.
                  But Poland itself, was invaded and surrendered (the nation ,not individuals) in 1939.
                  Britain (and the Commonwealth) were the first to defy Hitler and not submit.
                  "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                  Samuel Johnson.

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                  • Can we all put our collective penises back in our pants and stop having a measuring contest? World War II was a team effort and the Allied team was far better than the Axis team.

                    But back to the OP. I think I mentioned this before but that the Polish air force and AA units did not submit easily and did do a number on the Luftwaffe.
                    Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

                    "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

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                    • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
                      Consider the popularity of the movie (and book) Sophie's Choice
                      One fiction book does not a summer make.

                      May have been true, once, but I have read books written by and translated into English, by Halder, Manstein, Galland, and Speer. Losers, all, except in the royalties department. [/QUOTE]

                      That isn't history. That is a bunch of murderers (Galland excepted, I suppose, but then again I haven't read his book) justifying how they were such cool dudes, and only the interference of Hitler and his bum boys stopped them from doing really cool stuff (in the right way, of course). That isn't history. History is when the true story is told. I don't think that (at least in the west) Poland ever has had the chance to hear that story. It's only those that scratch a little deeper than BoB or D-Day that know even part of the true story.

                      Look take one of these mouth breathers that watch the History Channel every chance they get. Tell them that Poland suffered 1/5th loss of it's population in WW2. I bet they call you a liar. And if they do believe you (1...2...3...4... you're dead. 1...2...3...4... you're dead etc) they will ask you why they were never told that. And the simple reason is that it all happened behind the lines while 'our' boys fought at the front, and made sexier and more locally relevant newsreels. And after it all, well, Poland is a Soviet satellite so propaganda demands we deflate those tyres, not pump them up.

                      And so, like China, the suffering of Poland is a story that has never been, and may never will, be fully told or understood by those don't deliberately seek it out and study it.
                      Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                      That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Rojik View Post
                        That is a bunch of murderers (Galland excepted, I suppose, but then again I haven't read his book) justifying how they were such cool dudes, and only the interference of Hitler and his bum boys stopped them from doing really cool stuff (in the right way, of course).
                        I've read galland's book and listened to the bloke speak... he was a wanker.

                        The long toll of the brave
                        Is not lost in darkness
                        Over the fruitful earth
                        And athwart the seas
                        Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                        Unquenchable forever.

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                        • Originally posted by Von Richter View Post


                          I've read galland's book and listened to the bloke speak... he was a wanker.

                          I had the hnour to meet Adolf Galland, Robert Stanford-Tuck and George Gay at the same time and place and get their autographs. I just wish I knew where they are now. Anyways at that time and place Galland did not come off as a wanker. But i admit I have not read his book either. But the one, of a small handful, of books about/by German fighting men I diidn't think was over-stated/self serving was The Blond Knight of Germany. That being said I've not seen what modern research has turned up on Erich Hartmann. Siegfred Knappe's Soldat is another.

                          Now some I read are absolute rubbish: Rudel, Sajer etc. etc. I'd just treat them as comic books to be read for fun; not facts. But that is all I'm going to say for now. Aren't you glad?
                          Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

                          "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

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                          • Originally posted by RichardS View Post
                            I had the hnour to meet Adolf Galland, Robert Stanford-Tuck and George Gay at the same time and place and get their autographs. I just wish I knew where they are now. Anyways at that time and place Galland did not come off as a wanker. But i admit I have not read his book either. But the one, of a small handful, of books about/by German fighting men I diidn't think was over-stated/self serving was The Blond Knight of Germany. That being said I've not seen what modern research has turned up on Erich Hartmann. Siegfred Knappe's Soldat is another.

                            Now some I read are absolute rubbish: Rudel, Sajer etc. etc. I'd just treat them as comic books to be read for fun; not facts. But that is all I'm going to say for now. Aren't you glad?
                            Have you read Lubbecks 'At Leningrads Gates' ?
                            I am part way through and am pleased with it but would like a general opinion. lcm1
                            'By Horse by Tram'.


                            I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                            " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by RichardS View Post
                              Can we all put our collective penises back in our pants and stop having a measuring contest? World War II was a team effort and the Allied team was far better than the Axis team.

                              But back to the OP. I think I mentioned this before but that the Polish air force and AA units did not submit easily and did do a number on the Luftwaffe.
                              Mine is not worth taking out in the first place nowadays RS!!
                              'By Horse by Tram'.


                              I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                              " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                                Have you read Lubbecks 'At Leningrads Gates' ?
                                I am part way through and am pleased with it but would like a general opinion. lcm1
                                I'm sorry. I've not read that particular book. I might look into it though.

                                Mine is not worth taking out in the first place nowadays RS!!
                                Well, it could still be measured, but at least we're not talking about negative numbers.
                                Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

                                "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

                                Comment

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