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What is the most overlooked, undervalued, underestimated aspect of WWII?

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  • Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
    Yes great post. That is the American spirit in motion^
    Photo of the man made harbour at Normandy, having seen the erection of this marvel, I fail to see the logic of such a comment, please explain. lcm1
    'By Horse by Tram'.


    I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
    " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

    Comment


    • Cret where credit is due

      Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
      Photo of the man made harbour at Normandy, having seen the erection of this marvel, I fail to see the logic of such a comment, please explain. lcm1
      Yikes here we go again!! the bloody Yanks thinking they invented or used something first and taking credit for it when in fact it was actually someone else.

      Mulberry was of course a British development (it was a development NOT an invention by the way), the ancients used pontoons, moveable flat topped, breakwaters (essentially what Mulberry was) that could bear two lane chariot traffic or a couple of Bedford or Thornycroft trucks , sunken triremes to form piers etc, etc.

      Now what else have the Americans claimed credit for that actually should go to some-else or where at least credit should be broadly shared?
      Hmmmm let's see oh yeah:
      . D-Day itself
      . Victory in Burma
      . Motorizing the Soviet Army
      . Saving Paris in 1918
      . Defeating Hitler

      lodestar was neither liked nor trusted. Not by those who raised him, those he grew up with and went to school with, those he worked with and associated with as an adult, nor those who know him now.
      One woman told him she felt uneasy around him because: 'Your eyes are the colour of dirty coins.'

      Regards lodestar

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lodestar View Post
        Yikes here we go again!! the bloody Yanks thinking they invented or used something first and taking credit for it when in fact it was actually someone else.

        Mulberry was of course a British development (it was a development NOT an invention by the way), the ancients used pontoons, moveable flat topped, breakwaters (essentially what Mulberry was) that could bear two lane chariot traffic or a couple of Bedford or Thornycroft trucks , sunken triremes to form piers etc, etc.

        Now what else have the Americans claimed credit for that actually should go to some-else or where at least credit should be broadly shared?
        Hmmmm let's see oh yeah:
        . D-Day itself
        . Victory in Burma
        . Motorizing the Soviet Army
        . Saving Paris in 1918
        . Defeating Hitler

        lodestar was neither liked nor trusted. Not by those who raised him, those he grew up with and went to school with, those he worked with and associated with as an adult, nor those who know him now.
        One woman told him she felt uneasy around him because: 'Your eyes are the colour of dirty coins.'

        Regards lodestar
        I don't remember calling it an invention ls, Oh sorry, that was just an opportunity to demonstrate your superior knowledge wasn't it. lcm1
        'By Horse by Tram'.


        I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
        " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lodestar View Post
          Yikes here we go again!! the bloody Yanks thinking they invented or used something first and taking credit for it when in fact it was actually someone else.

          Mulberry was of course a British development (it was a development NOT an invention by the way), the ancients used pontoons, moveable flat topped, breakwaters (essentially what Mulberry was) that could bear two lane chariot traffic or a couple of Bedford or Thornycroft trucks , sunken triremes to form piers etc, etc.
          Actually, the British were hardly first either... Even the Germans figured it out for Seelöwe...

          https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...8276&start=480

          But, even for Normandy, the US was providing a good chunk of the materials, and if Captain (later Rear Admiral) Edward Ellsburg USN (see The Far Shore is to be believed, that the US played a major role in just making it happen at all.

          Now what else have the Americans claimed credit for that actually should go to some-else or where at least credit should be broadly shared?
          Hmmmm let's see oh yeah:
          . D-Day itself
          Like the British could have pulled it off by themselves. Were there any British only major amphibious assaults in WW 2?

          . Victory in Burma
          Well, that's not because the British did it. It's more like the rest of the Pacific war pretty much debilitated the Japanese first.

          . Motorizing the Soviet Army
          "Studebaker" was a Russian nickname for a truck for quite a while after WW 2, not "Bedford." Maybe that's because the US sent 501,660 motor vehicles to the Soviets while the British sent 4020...

          . Saving Paris in 1918
          Well, that certainly wasn't British doing.

          . Defeating Hitler
          Joint effort of the USSR, US, and British Commonwealth in that order.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
            " ... Defeating Hitler
            Joint effort of the USSR, US, and British Commonwealth in that order.
            I guess the "order" would depend on which yardstick we use.
            Without actually checking the numbers, these would be my guesses:

            Material resources; both used and donated to the overall war effort
            USA, British Commonwealth, Soviet Union (not sure about 2nd & 3rd)

            Manpower actively deployed
            Soviet Union 1st by a MASSIVE margin; and I'd honestly have to check for 2nd & 3rd but I'm guessing USA 2nd, by the end of the war at least.

            Duration of military engagement against Nazi Germany
            British Commonwealth, Soviet Union, USA


            And this; although it is obviously not in the same general category but worth remembering IMO:

            Human lives lost from military activity
            Soviet Union by a MASSIVE margin, British Commonwealth, USA (very narrow margin between 2nd and 3rd)
            Last edited by panther3485; 11 Feb 18, 03:59.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • Don't forget the Yanks won us the Battle of Britain by giving us proper petrol for our Spitfires.

              The long toll of the brave
              Is not lost in darkness
              Over the fruitful earth
              And athwart the seas
              Hath passed the light of noble deeds
              Unquenchable forever.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Von Richter View Post
                Don't forget the Yanks won us the Battle of Britain by giving us proper petrol for our Spitfires.

                You mean selling us fuel on which a healthy profit was made.
                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                  You mean selling us fuel on which a healthy profit was made.
                  Capitalism's finest hour, a fast buck, was made...
                  and the life of the world moved forward into broad, sunlit uplands.

                  The long toll of the brave
                  Is not lost in darkness
                  Over the fruitful earth
                  And athwart the seas
                  Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                  Unquenchable forever.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    Actually, the British were hardly first either... Even the Germans figured it out for Seelöwe...

                    https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...8276&start=480

                    But, even for Normandy, the US was providing a good chunk of the materials, and if Captain (later Rear Admiral) Edward Ellsburg USN (see The Far Shore is to be believed, that the US played a major role in just making it happen at all.



                    . D-Day itself
                    Like the British could have pulled it off by themselves. Were there any British only major amphibious assaults in WW 2?

                    . Victory in Burma
                    Well, that's not because the British did it. It's more like the rest of the Pacific war pretty much debilitated the Japanese first.

                    . Motorizing the Soviet Army
                    "Studebaker" was a Russian nickname for a truck for quite a while after WW 2, not "Bedford." Maybe that's because the US sent 501,660 motor vehicles to the Soviets while the British sent 4020...

                    . Saving Paris in 1918
                    Well, that certainly wasn't British doing.

                    . Defeating Hitler
                    Joint effort of the USSR, US, and British Commonwealth in that order.
                    But the British were first when it mattered- namely defying Hitler.
                    "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                    Samuel Johnson.

                    Comment


                    • A good nights sleep

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Von Richter View Post
                        Don't forget the Yanks won us the Battle of Britain by giving us proper petrol for our Spitfires.

                        "They also serve who only pump oil, refine it into high-octane gasoline, and ship it to Britain through U-Boat infested waters, and deliver it per request." - John Milton's Greatgreatgreatgreatgrandson "On His Work In the Awl Bidness"
                        Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                        Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                        For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                        And battles long ago:
                        -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                          But the British were first when it mattered- namely defying Hitler.
                          Bit tough on the Poles, who fought from start to finish.
                          Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that claim a god and the only living thing that behaves like it hasn't got one - Hunter S. Thompson

                          Comment


                          • Poland as underated aspect of WWII

                            Originally posted by BF69 View Post
                            Bit tough on the Poles, who fought from start to finish.
                            Absolutely. The UK lost 450,000 killed (military and civilian) the Poles around 6000,000.

                            That's a 13.3 to 1 ratio.

                            Now I know people say 'there are lies damn lies and statistics' but those figures sure tell you something about these respective countries experience of WII.

                            What Eastern Europe (and of course China on the other side of the world)went through is definitely an overlooked and under-estimated aspect of the war, at least amongst the general population in 'The West'.

                            One must cross the threshold of greatness. Then and only then can one comprehend the true nature of the one called lodestar - for many the quest to cross that threshold becomes their life’s work.

                            Regards lodestar

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lodestar View Post
                              Absolutely. The UK lost 450,000 killed (military and civilian) the Poles around 6000,000.

                              That's a 13.3 to 1 ratio.

                              Now I know people say 'there are lies damn lies and statistics' but those figures sure tell you something about these respective countries experience of WII.

                              What Eastern Europe (and of course China on the other side of the world)went through is definitely an overlooked and under-estimated aspect of the war, at least amongst the general population in 'The West'.

                              One must cross the threshold of greatness. Then and only then can one comprehend the true nature of the one called lodestar - for many the quest to cross that threshold becomes their life’s work.

                              Regards lodestar
                              Oh agreed X10000. Poland's agony is a story little told, but often ignored, part of that horrible war. Carved up and brutalised for no reason, brutalised again by an extremely evil power once the USSR and Nazi Germany fell out, and then, in the guise of liberation, enslaved and brutalised again.

                              If the dead of Poland from that time could speak they would demand to have what happened to them remembered for ever, and say 'never again'.

                              The history of the world is written by the victors, and, unfortunately for Poland, the Soviets were the victors then, and drowned out the Polish pain to tell the story of their own.

                              I was going to write something about how airpower went from (the allied side) to dropping leaflets in 1939/40... to burning cites in 1943... to atomic bombings in 1945, but the Polish story makes that seem somehow small beer.
                              Last edited by Rojik; 12 Feb 18, 08:14.
                              Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                              That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

                              Comment


                              • Poland is largely overlooked in the popular perception. However the bibliography on Poland in WW2 is very large believe me, my next essay in my MA course on WW2 is about Poland so I'm finding this out the hard way. Unfortunately depending on when written (and which type of government is in Poland) they give very different slants - the historiography is full of the sound of different axes being ground.
                                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                                Comment

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