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What is the most overlooked, undervalued, underestimated aspect of WWII?

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  • Originally posted by lodestar View Post

    Still you can look at it a different way.
    See my thread-starter in the Alternate Timelines sub-forum.
    "Take the Nazis out & is there something heroically epic about Germanyís
    1944/45 final stand?"


    Regards lodestar
    Fat chance! Talk about cornered rats!
    Will no one tell me what she sings?--
    Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
    For old, unhappy, far-off things,
    And battles long ago:
    -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

    Comment


    • The last stand of Germany 1944/45

      Originally Posted by lodestar

      Still you can look at it a different way.
      See my thread-starter in the Alternate Timelines sub-forum.
      "Take the Nazis out & is there something heroically epic about Germanyís
      1944/45 final stand?"

      Regards lodestar
      Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
      Fat chance! Talk about cornered rats!
      Of course if you look at it as leaving the Nazis 'in' (as I think you're doing)then its cornered rats.
      However to quote from the thread's OP:
      "You have to forget itís the Nazis in charge and just imagine itís one European (white) nation facing impossible odds against a coalition of other European (white) and one Eurasian (mixed races) countries.
      Surrounded, vastly outnumbered and out-resourced, friendless, battered, bloodied, no hope of victory but determined to go down fighting.
      Get the idea?"

      Okay we're drifting off topic a bit.
      Essentially what I'm suggesting is that one of the most undervalued, underestimated (and may I add uncomfortable) aspects of the war is the desperate defiance, stubbornness and (dare I say it), courage, the totally vile regime that was Nazi Germany displayed as it went crashing to destruction in 1944/45.

      and relax everyone, for the hundredth time I'm the poster least likely to be a Nazi fanboi.

      Regards
      lodestar

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lodestar View Post
        Of course if you look at it as leaving the Nazis 'in' (as I think you're doing)then its cornered rats.
        However to quote from the thread's OP:
        "You have to forget itís the Nazis in charge and just imagine itís one European (white) nation facing impossible odds against a coalition of other European (white) and one Eurasian (mixed races) countries.
        Surrounded, vastly outnumbered and out-resourced, friendless, battered, bloodied, no hope of victory but determined to go down fighting.
        Get the idea?"
        The idea is ridiculous - you can't leave out the fact of the Nazis as it was the prospect of reprisals for Nazi atrocities that kept the Germans fighting.
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
          " <snip> But with hindsight carpet-bombing didn't put Adolf out of business, for example in 1944 he produced almost 8000 tanks! ... "
          I'd agree that the bombing alone didn't "put Adolf out of business".
          However, based on my reading and understanding to date, I would maintain that it made a very significant contribution towards doing so.
          As for the tank production, we can see similar very large levels of increase in production rates for fighter aircraft in the last couple of years of the war.
          However, we also need to consider:
          (a) How much higher still those production figures could have been; and/or
          (b) What else the Nazis could have done with the extra production capacity combined with much better supply, logistic, energy, transport, infrastructure and other assets that would have been otherwise relatively unmolested; and
          (c) Having widespread relatively unmolested assets as per above, and the ability to concentrate and focus the greater resources more effectively, how much longer it might have taken to defeat Nazi Germany; and
          (d) How many more people - both civilian and military on both sides of the conflict - would have suffered and perished if Nazi Germany had been able to continue fighting even for just a few more months.


          Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
          " ... The best strategy would have been to surgically take out his factories with pinpoint raids but that couldn't be done because we hadn't got a Divebomber Command. and Intelligence didn't know exactly where they were especially as there were hundreds of factories all churning out individual components like a big jigsaw puzzle covering Germany."
          Exactly. In weighing all this, I consider the following:

          What was known and reasonably knowable to the Allies at that time.

          The limitations of the technology, weaponry, means of delivery and ability to accurately measure the effects of the bombing.

          Based on these, what it was reasonable to expect.

          In light of the above, realistically, I think the strategy that was actually pursued would have seemed right, and the best to logically pursue, from the Allied point of view.
          Last edited by panther3485; 07 Feb 18, 09:35.
          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
            The idea is ridiculous - you can't leave out the fact of the Nazis as it was the prospect of reprisals for Nazi atrocities that kept the Germans fighting.
            Exactly.
            A more pragmatic, realistic and SANE regime - and one that actually CARED about the fate of its people - would have thrown the towel in much earlier.
            But then, a more sane regime in Germany's position probably would not have prosecuted such an aggressive war to begin with.
            Nor, even if it went to war, would it become so carried away with its initial successes; so myopically far up it's own arrogant arse, as to end up in a totally unwinnable war against the three greatest military powers in the World, combined.
            Yet, such was Nazi Germany's position by (IMO) the end of 1941.
            Last edited by panther3485; 07 Feb 18, 09:37.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
              Exactly.
              A more pragmatic, realistic and SANE regime - and one that actually CARED about the fate of its people - would have thrown the towel in much earlier.
              But then, a more sane regime in Germany's position probably would not have prosecuted such an aggressive war to begin with.
              Nor, even if it went to war, would it become so carried away with its initial successes; so myopically far up it's own arrogant arse, as to end up in a totally unwinnable war against the three greatest military powers in the World, combined.
              Yet, such was Nazi Germany's position by (IMO) the end of 1941.
              Agreed and I would add if the Nazis had not been in power the Allies would probably not have insisted on total surrender but might well have offered Germany terms which no matter how harsh might have been seen as better than fighting to the bitter end.
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lodestar View Post
                ..Essentially what I'm suggesting is that one of the most undervalued, underestimated (and may I add uncomfortable) aspects of the war is the desperate defiance, stubbornness and (dare I say it), courage, the totally vile regime that was Nazi Germany displayed as it went crashing to destruction in 1944/45..
                Hitler and his fanatical henchmen were psychos, and wouldn't admit defeat.
                In a TV doc a while back an elderly German civilian was asked why the German people didn't rise up and demand that Hitler surrender given that the war was clearly being lost, and he replied "Because we were more scared of the Nazis than Allied bombs".

                Comment


                • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                  I'd agree that the bombing alone didn't "put Adolf out of business"...
                  Yes, perhaps the Allies were hitting the wrong targets, I dunno.
                  For example tanks and planes can't operate without fuel, and it was pouring into Germany so I wonder why the Allies didn't simply cut the fuel supply line somewhere along its length between the middle east and the refineries etc?

                  Comment


                  • Another overlooked and undervalued aspect of WW 2 was civil engineering. It went a long way to winning the war for the Allies and losing it for the Axis.

                    Take for instance:

                    The ALCAN highway



                    The Ledo Road



                    Oak Ridge Tennessee



                    All the advance bases in the Pacific:



                    To one of the most important advances in construction, the bulldozer:



                    Or D-Day's Mullberry Harbors

                    Comment


                    • It was more a question of ressources available. All Axis had lower production than US alone.
                      There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
                        Fat chance! Talk about cornered rats!
                        Hullo Sue, no Dear, that is a little unfair to the ordinary German soldiers ( and there were thousands of them } most of whom carried out orders to stay and fight. Which most of them did until there was nothing left to fight with and they finally did what any man would do, they tried if possible to get home ( Germany ) leaving unuseable Armour and guns behind them. lcm1
                        'By Horse by Tram'.


                        I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                        " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                        Comment


                        • Overlooked and undervalued?....How about the fact that the great majority of the landing craft ( of all sizes ) used in the Normandy landings were manned by British RN and RM 18 year olds with less than 12 months service? lcm1
                          'By Horse by Tram'.


                          I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                          " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                          Comment


                          • What is the most overlooked, undervalued, underestimated aspect of WWII?


                            US Steelworkers must be given a mention. You know folks I have fallen in love with the Steel industry, so much so I am applying for a job at a local steel factory. I will have to update myself on math and mechanical aptitude skills via youtube and my sister in law whom has a masters degree in mathematics. God Willing I will prevail and get the job!!! I want to follow in the footsteps of the men and women who built America.

                            16:50 mark of the following video we see American greatness in motion. We see American steel workers contributing to the allied war effort,

                            https://youtu.be/2QTGiHOZZFU?t=16m50s
                            Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
                            Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

                            George S Patton

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                              Another overlooked and undervalued aspect of WW 2 was civil engineering. It went a long way to winning the war for the Allies and losing it for the Axis.

                              Take for instance:

                              The ALCAN highway



                              The Ledo Road



                              Oak Ridge Tennessee



                              All the advance bases in the Pacific:



                              To one of the most important advances in construction, the bulldozer:



                              Or D-Day's Mullberry Harbors

                              Yes great post. That is the American spirit in motion^
                              Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DBaY0RsxU
                              Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

                              George S Patton

                              Comment


                              • I think, he does??, that one frequently over looked aspect of the bombing campaign was the resources the Germans had to pour into the defense against the bombers. Just think of all the fighters, AA guns and support equipment and personnel that could be employed elsewhere, but had to defend the Reich against air bombing. I wonder if anybody did a systematic study of how much was put into the defense of the Reich?

                                Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

                                "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

                                What didn't kill us; didn't make us smarter.

                                Comment

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