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What is the most overlooked, undervalued, underestimated aspect of WWII?

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  • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Because of two primary reasons:

    1. They probably could have produced far more without bombing.

    and

    2. Speer released most of Germany's strategic reserves of materials in early 1944 to massively boost production. This would mean that by 1946 German production would have crashed, and crashed badly, due to lack of raw materials. Put another way, Germany couldn't sustain those production levels for more than about 2 years before they ran out of "stuff" to make things with.
    and

    3. Speer concentrated production on a limited number of items needed for the short term at the expense of material needed for the longer term (for example anything to do with training). The hope (vain) was that the wonder weapons would turn things around in the short term..
    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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    • But guys, clearly too many German factories were still standing after years of carpet-bombing, so in that respect the bombing offensive failed, right?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
        But guys, clearly too many German factories were still standing after years of carpet-bombing, so in that respect the bombing offensive failed, right?
        Wrong large amounts of production were moved to underground factories and large amounts of slave labour used to man them. This was unsustainable in the long run
        Last edited by MarkV; 05 Feb 18, 12:27.
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
          Wrong large amounts of production was moved to underground factories and large amounts of slave labour used to man them. This was unsustainable in the long run
          Yes, the Allies were carpet-bombing industrial areas, so jerry simply re-located his factories outside those areas and disguised and camouflaged them or dug them in underground.
          So my question to AG members is how could the Allies have nobbled those factories to put them out of production?
          I've got a few ideas of my own but you go first..
          This thread is about "underestimated aspects" so I'm saying the Allies seriously underestimated their ability to take out the factories.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
            Yes, the Allies were carpet-bombing industrial areas, so jerry simply re-located his factories outside those areas and disguised and camouflaged them or dug them in underground.
            So my question to AG members is how could the Allies have nobbled those factories to put them out of production?
            I've got a few ideas of my own but you go first..
            This thread is about "underestimated aspects" so I'm saying the Allies seriously underestimated their ability to take out the factories.
            They didn't need to take them out as the transport infrastructure also got knackered so they couldn't get materials in or products out and power was also a problem. The slave work force had terrible productivity and quality control was non existent. As I said the whole thing was unsustainable. The Japanese had the same problem.
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
              What I think has always been overlooked is why German factories were able to go on churning out planes/tanks/guns/ammo etc throughout the entire war?
              Why didn't the allies simply bomb them to rubble?
              They did. All the Germans did was brush the rubble off and carry on. Now using napalm...

              Back on the thread subject - overlooked stuff...

              Stalin's annexation of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina from Rumania in June 1940. Greedy bugg@r.

              I suspect Hitler's preps for Barbarossa was seen by Stalin as just a reaction by Hitler to his land grabbing.
              They couldn't hit an elephant at this

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
                Overy (either in The Air War or The Bombers and the Bombed)remarks that pieces of heavy machinery are hard things to blow up.
                Quite true in many cases.
                However, even if a machine is intact it still needs power, lubricants, spare parts and the materials it's going to machine; as well as transport & infrastructure to move those supplies & parts; operators to work & maintain it, etc.
                The majority of these items are much more vulnerable and even when they can be restored, repaired or replaced, it's a great drain on resources that in many cases could be used elsewhere in the war effort.
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                • What is the most overlooked, undervalued, underestimated aspect of WWII?

                  It very well could be Soviet Jewish contributions to the allied war effort,

                  Between 350,000 to 500,000 Jews fought for The Soviet Union in World War II. Approximately 200,000 to 250,000 gave their lives. Soviet Jews were not geographically confined and came from all walks of life making the Jewish soldiers representative of the country's population. They served in virtually every part of The Red Army. Though the Communist Party theoretically outlawed religion, they catalogued citizens by ethnicity which included Judaism. This meant unlike the other allied armies, Jewish soldiers were officially identified

                  http://www.sovietjewishveterans.com/#/stories/398

                  There are some great stories on the Sovietjewishveterans.com sight, which provides video testimony of dozens of Soviet Jewish veterans.
                  Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM

                  Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.

                  George S Patton

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                    Quite true in many cases.
                    However, even if a machine is intact it still needs power, lubricants, spare parts and the materials it's going to machine; as well as transport & infrastructure to move those supplies & parts; operators to work & maintain it, etc.
                    The majority of these items are much more vulnerable and even when they can be restored, repaired or replaced, it's a great drain on resources that in many cases could be used elsewhere in the war effort.
                    Yeah, but I know you would agree that it is a lot easier to replace lubricant than a rolling mill or a stamp press
                    Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                    Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                    For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                    And battles long ago:
                    -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
                      Yeah, but I know you would agree that it is a lot easier to replace lubricant than a rolling mill or a stamp press
                      Of course; but on the other hand, lubricant is far from being the only resource the machine needs to run, to continue running, and to do so at full efficiency.
                      Furthermore, in war - as I am sure we are all aware - the "ideal" and/or quickest solution is far from always reasonably achievable.
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
                        Yeah, but I know you would agree that it is a lot easier to replace lubricant than a rolling mill or a stamp press
                        Not always. there is a good example from WW1 when The Allies managed to effectively block the German access to castor oil this had a dramatic defect on their airforce as rotary engines need castor oil as a lubricant and promising fighters like the Fokker D iV and the Siemens-Schuckert DIII which were powered by rotaries werevery limited in their use.

                        In WW2 the oils that Germany had access to after mid 1941 (Romanian and Coal produced) do not have good yields of lubricants and industrial processes such as high speed turning and milling use prodigious amounts of lubricant sprayed onto the cutting bits so any lubricant loss was a major concern.
                        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                          Not always. there is a good example from WW1 when The Allies managed to effectively block the German access to castor oil this had a dramatic defect on their airforce as rotary engines need castor oil as a lubricant and promising fighters like the Fokker D iV and the Siemens-Schuckert DIII which were powered by rotaries werevery limited in their use.

                          In WW2 the oils that Germany had access to after mid 1941 (Romanian and Coal produced) do not have good yields of lubricants and industrial processes such as high speed turning and milling use prodigious amounts of lubricant sprayed onto the cutting bits so any lubricant loss was a major concern.
                          Okay, okay, you guys. I was just trying to explain why the factories kept going after frequent bombing. Anybody that has read Tooze knows that Germany's import crisis was a great blow to the industrial plant.
                          Will no one tell me what she sings?--
                          Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
                          For old, unhappy, far-off things,
                          And battles long ago:
                          -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                            ..lubricant is far from being the only resource the machine needs to run, to continue running, and to do so at full efficiency..
                            Yes there are a zillion components that tanks and planes etc need to make them go; for example my late mother worked in a factory in England making gunsights for fighter planes, so if the Luftwaffe had bombed it, some of our Spits might have been delayed in getting up to have a crack at jerry later on.
                            Of course, there must have been other factories capable of producing them but you catch my drift.
                            Churchill thought carpet-bombing was the answer, he said in 1940--
                            "When I look around to see how we can win the war I see that there is only one sure path. We have no Continental army which can defeat the German military power.. Should [Hitler].. not try invasion [of Britain].. there is one thing that will bring him back and bring him down, and that is an absolutely devastating, exterminating attack by very heavy bombers from this country upon the Nazi homeland"

                            But with hindsight carpet-bombing didn't put Adolf out of business, for example in 1944 he produced almost 8000 tanks!
                            The best strategy would have been to surgically take out his factories with pinpoint raids but that couldn't be done because we hadn't got a Divebomber Command. and Intelligence didn't know exactly where they were especially as there were hundreds of factories all churning out individual components like a big jigsaw puzzle covering Germany.

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                            • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
                              Okay, okay, you guys. I was just trying to explain why the factories kept going after frequent bombing. Anybody that has read Tooze knows that Germany's import crisis was a great blow to the industrial plant.
                              No problem. It was a combination of factors.
                              I think somebody has already mentioned disbursement of production, which also helped the Germans to keep going.
                              Spreading manufacture between smaller factories and workshops over a wider area made effective bombing even more of a challenge.
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment


                              • Why the Germans kept going

                                The Germans 'kept going' for so long despite tremendous pressure from bombing, lack of resources, disrupted or even destroyed transport networks, bankrupt finances, inefficiencies such as use of salve labour (hey, just ask my mum she was one of 'em) and at times poor organization for the simple reason that they put in enormous effort (especially post-Stalingrad) to do so.

                                Devoting huge time and manpower, equipment and material to keep production going.
                                Moving underground, dispersing assets and manufacturing, using synthetics, improvising, adjusting, thinking, modifying approaches.
                                For Pete's Sake folks it's not just the good guys who can think on their feet and put heir shoulders to the wheel when their back is to the wall!
                                Okay, okay that's a kind of cheap shot, but you know what I mean.

                                Bombing would have work sooner had the Germans done nothing to address the problems it was causing.
                                Unfortunately for humanity, they were at war, things were getting desperate and they did stuff.

                                Definitely on of the war's most overlooked factors.

                                They plowed on seemingly insanely, led by a delusional, genocidal psychopath to the very end.

                                Still you can look at it a different way.
                                See my thread-starter in the Alternate Timelines sub-forum.
                                "Take the Nazis out & is there something heroically epic about Germany’s
                                1944/45 final stand?"


                                Regards lodestar

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