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  • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
    Hi RN, did you get 2nd Tank Army book 2?

    I am going to go through it next. Then back to Sword behind the shield.
    Yes, I did. Not having time to read thoroughly, I did scan it for content material on Bogdanov and Radzievsky, plus a couple of incidents/operations involving the 2nd GTA.
    Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

    Comment


    • I ordered a history of:

      'Der Fuhrer' regiment of the 2.SS PzD (by the commander, should have details about infantry tactics)

      7./8. Panzer company of the 1.SS (by the division's historian)
      Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
      Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
      Barbarossa Derailed I & II
      Battle of Kalinin October 1941

      Comment


      • from 'Viking Panzers', Jan 1945:

        Generaloberst Guderian, who had assumed duties as the Army chief of staff
        in July 1944, visited the command posts of General der Panzertruppen Balck
        (Armeegruppe Balck) and SS-Obergruppenführer Gille. Guderian later wrote down
        his impressions of those visits conducted during the first relief attempt of
        Budapest in his memoirs:


        It is most likely that the failure of the attack lies in the fact that
        the initial success of the fighting conducted during the evening
        of 1 January was not exploited the following night by a ruthlessly
        conducted breakthrough. We no longer had the leaders and forces
        of 1940; otherwise, we might have been blessed with a success there
        . . . 6
        In Guderian's memoir, he further comments that: "very little time for preparation, neither troops nor commanders had the drive of the 'old days'"
        Last edited by Cult Icon; 19 Dec 16, 09:04.
        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

        Comment


        • Author taking the side of 5.SS:

          I wonder why Guderian said that; he might be comparing Budapest to the trek of Panzergruppe Guderian through the Ardennes in 1940??

          The tough criticism of the tanks and their leaders who were employed
          there appears incomprehensible and unjustified.

          Generaloberst Guderian was able to be convinced by the commander in
          chief of the field-army group, Balck, of the unfavorable nature of the terrain
          that had been selected for the attack during a fleeting glance at the situation
          maps at the headquarters he visited. It was not reconcilable with the doctrinal
          principles in force back then to allow an armored formation to attack through
          extensive mountain woods along serpentines in the dead of winter against an
          opponent prepared for the defense.


          There were officers and noncommissioned officers among the tankers of
          the regiment and within the elements of the division that were familiar with
          the way things had been in 1940. They knew that tank formations in 1940
          never attacked with only 20 percent of their authorized strength. They fought
          in 1940 with artillery that offered sufficient support and a friendly air force
          that possessed air superiority and was able to attack point targets of the enemy with heretofore never before seen accuracy along the routes of advance with
          Stukas, clearing the way for the armor. The first relief attack on Budapest was
          conducted by brave and battle-experienced soldiers, but it was not planned
          properly.
          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
            from 'Viking Panzers', Jan 1945:
            Balck did not take command in Hungary until December 1944. In July 1944, he still commanded the XXXXVIII PzK.

            Balck relates an interesting meeting with Guderain and situation against the Russian 6th Gds Tank Army in January 1945 along the Danube. "Guderian was visiting me at the time, and he allowed me to redirect the 20th PzD form Slovakia and commit it to a counterattack.

            "Hitler, as usual, ordered the 20th PzD to attack into the base of the enemy breakthrough. But as we could have predicted, the attack ran into impenetrable antitank gun blocking positions. The, based on my experience, I redeployed the Panzers on a 45-degree oblique axis inot the Russians' breakthrough salient. Upon further interference by Hitler, I reported that the division was already engaged and achieving initial success. False reporting is the consequence of bad leadership. Even though I was Confident, we were greatly relieved when the 20th PzD succeeded on a large scale and the 6th GTA withdrew, completely beaten.. On 12 January that episode was over."
            Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 19 Dec 16, 09:14.
            Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

            Comment


            • Wood's two books:

              Totenkopf's Panther Battalion

              Totenkopf's Tiger Company

              have coverage about the armored battles in the summer 1944 (Warsaw/Poland) and the Konrad fighting.

              This is no longer the happy days of 1943...the Tiger tanks take heavy losses. The Soviets IS-2 and SU-100, and effective anti-tank gun fronts.

              SS Major Merierdess is killed when his panther's turret is knocked off by a SU-85 in one hour of attacking.

              The first confrontation of SU-100, Jan 7th (Konrad I):

              At 0700 hours,
              SS-Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 3 laid down an artillery barrage for an hour. This time, ten
              Panthers from I/SS-Panzer-Regiment 3, with escorting grenadiers, moved south of
              Szomor, trying to outflank the Russian positions. The Panthers managed to reach the
              Felsoors Psz–Enes–Many road junction only to come under fire from SU-100 selfpropelled
              guns from the 382nd Guards Self-Propelled Artillery Regiment. This was the
              first combat commitment of the SU-100. The 382nd had some limited infantry support,
              which quickly ran away, forcing some of the crews from the SU-100s to dismount and
              fight as infantry. The 382nd also requested tank support, but the SU-100s managed to
              knock out one Panther and seriously damaged nine more. The 382nd lost eleven SU-100s
              destroyed or damaged. The tank platoon sent to support the regiment lost some T-34 tanks
              and one JS-type heavy self-propelled gun. During the action, SS-Sturmbannführer Krass in
              his Befehlspanther knocked out two Russian tanks, while SS-Panzer-Regiment 3 claimed a
              total of seventeen Russian tanks.
              Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
              Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
              Barbarossa Derailed I & II
              Battle of Kalinin October 1941

              Comment


              • supporting histories for Warsaw 1944 and Budapest 1945:

                Days of Battle: Hungary 1944-1945

                Order in Chaos, Balck
                Stalin's Favorite II
                Armored Bears: 3.Pz II
                History of 23. Pz
                Totenkopf's Panther Battalion
                Totenkopf's Tiger Company
                History of 503 Tiger ?
                Panzerkorps GD ?
                Knight's Cross Panzers (4.Pz) ?
                Panzer tactics, Schieder ? IIRC had something about Konrad
                Warsaw 2: the tank battle for Praga
                Viking Panzers

                What I don't have:

                European Volunteers: 5. SS
                Ulrich's 3.SS history
                History of Fallschirmkorps HG
                Kampfgruppe Mühlenkamp
                Last edited by Cult Icon; 21 Dec 16, 00:35.
                Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                Comment


                • Konrad I/II highlights:

                  9 Jan 1945 (History of Tiger 503)

                  503 split up to support the 1.Pz, 23.Pz, and 4th Calvary brigade. 7 tank kills in 4th Calvary's attack sector.

                  ISU-152 group in ambush knocks out 4 King Tigers.

                  11 Jan 1945 :

                  Tiger 503 spearheads the attack of the 23.Pz. It outflanks 10-12 AT guns and the soviet crews bolt.

                  It attacks with 13 King Tigers. 10 are knocked out by the Soviets with 2 written off.

                  They seize Zamoly with 21 armor kills, 20 AT guns, 3 aircraft, 1 rocket launcher.

                  18th Jan 1945

                  Spearhead the attack, supporting 23. Panzer in Konrad III. King Tigers run into a minefield covered by AT guns. Engineers are brought forward.

                  7 tank kills and 8 AT guns are destroyed. 4 King Tigers knocked out. 1 KT with a disabled main gun.
                  Last edited by Cult Icon; 21 Dec 16, 00:24.
                  Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                  Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                  Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                  Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                  Comment


                  • 22 Jan 1945

                    Spearhead attack of 1.Panzer with 9 King Tigers against strong soviet AT defenses. Tigers get into a meeting engagement with a soviet SU group and gets 7 kills. 4 King Tigers knocked out.

                    23 Jan 1945

                    Attack towards Casala. 4 tank kills. 2 KTs run over mines. Attack stopped by Soviet aerial attacks and rocket fire.

                    25 Jan 1945


                    Spearhead the attack, supporting 4th CB with a few King Tigers. 2 KTs are knocked out by gunfire and mines.
                    Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                    Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                    Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                    Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                    Comment


                    • Tigers in Combat I has a diary account of the attack of the 503 and 509 King Tigers for the Konrad I/II/III thrusts.
                      Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                      Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                      Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                      Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                      Comment


                      • 2.SS "Das Reich"

                        claims:

                        +4,000 plus tank kills 1939-1945

                        Of these, it claimed 2,000 tank kills from Jan 1, 1943 - Nov 6, 1943.

                        On August 27, 1943 they claimed 1,000 tank kills, accumulated through the last 35 combat days.

                        US 4th Armored, Normandy to VE day:

                        Claims:

                        847 tank kills
                        13,641 enemy killed
                        ~90,000 prisoners

                        * For the 2.SS, half of their tank kills claim are attributed to big armored battles of 1943: 3rd Kharkov, 4th Kharkov, Kursk, Mius, Dnepr

                        *A large portion of US 4th Armored claims are from the Lorraine tank battles.

                        US 3rd Armored Normandy to VE Day:

                        Claims

                        1,023 tank kills
                        76,720 prisoners

                        ---

                        own losses:

                        10,371 casualties
                        818 armor written-off (1,305 medium and 395 light armor were repaired)
                        Last edited by Cult Icon; 24 Dec 16, 17:58.
                        Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                        Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                        Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                        Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                        Comment


                        • 2GTA, July 1944- May 1945

                          claims:

                          899 armor kills
                          99,421 enemies killed
                          15,808 POWs

                          own losses:

                          1,337 written-off
                          30,400 casualties

                          *note the ratio of killed vs POWs VS the US Armored divisions. On avg., each tank corps killed 33,000 enemies and knocked out 300 armor.

                          *2GTA was composed of GHQ plus 3 armored corps (3 tank corps or 2 tank corps and 1 mech. corps)
                          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                          Comment


                          • I'm reading US 2.AD, 3.AD, 4.AD and 11.AD (UK).

                            Igorn's 2GTA part 2 is really a must-buy.. the best single volume divisional history I've ever seen. The section on Berlin is filled with information on urban warfare tactics and the book has an enormous quantity of statistics (tables and worked into the text) like "Sword behind the shield".

                            There is also a new book on Brandenburg division in 1945, and the preview looks good. I read every page:

                            https://www.amazon.com/A.-Stephan-Ha...2633813&sr=8-1
                            Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                            Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                            Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                            Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post

                              US 4th Armored, Normandy to VE day:

                              Claims:

                              847 tank kills
                              13,641 enemy killed
                              ~90,000 prisoners


                              US 3rd Armored Normandy to VE Day:

                              Claims

                              1,023 tank kills
                              76,720 prisoners

                              ---

                              own losses:

                              10,371 casualties
                              818 armor written-off (1,305 medium and 395 light armor were repaired)
                              For some reason the US 3rd AD is always singled out as the 'standard' for US tank losses 1944-45.
                              Perhaps this table of US AD losses by rank will explain why it is so often used:

                              805 losses in 3rd
                              490 losses in 7th
                              290+losses in 2nd
                              268 losses in 4th
                              220 losses in 6th
                              212 losses in 9th & 10th
                              159 losses in 12th
                              136 losses in 14th
                              109 losses in 11th
                              100 losses in 5th
                              79 losses in 8th
                              35 losses in 13th
                              19 losses in 20th

                              c.3000 tank losses in the ADs of which 3rd AD share is 27% of the total

                              3rd seems to have seen some serious action and by taking it as the norm you get a very flawed idea of the average of US AD losses.

                              The tank kill claims for 3rd & 4th AD are way above what they should be.
                              Last edited by m kenny; 25 Dec 16, 08:43.

                              Comment


                              • US 3rd AD

                                Incomplete list of losses:

                                Attack of 29th June- ? : 31 armor write-offs, 351 casualties

                                9-15 July 1944: 52 write-offs, 455 casualties

                                16 Dec 1944 -16 Jan 1945: 163 write-offs, 1,473 "battle casualties". Claimed 108 armor kills.

                                25 March- 1 April:53 write-offs, 629 casualites. Claim 66 armor kills. Took 20,193 POWs
                                Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                                Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                                Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                                Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                                Comment

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