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A little-known Dutch

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  • A little-known Dutch

    The link below provides a large collection of images, including rare color photos, of a little known fighter aircraft used during World War II.


    http://aviacaoemfloripa.blogspot.com...-de-briga.html


    Best Regards!

  • #2
    "Little known" is going a bit far Used by Netherlands, Denmark and Finland (which built a modified version) and the Spanish Republican government bought a manufacturing licence
    Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
    Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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    • #3
      Fokker D.XXI, to spare the hassle for those who haven't identified the type.
      Last edited by nikolas93TS; 12 Jun 16, 18:08.
      It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

      Косово је Србија!
      Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

      Armored Brigade

      Armored Brigade Facebook page

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      • #4
        A fighter that had the distinction of gaining a victory with a cockpit canopy. During the German invasion of the Netherlands a Dutch DXXI found itself on the loosing end of a dog fight with a 109 which was closing on the tail of the slower Dutch fighter and blasting it with cannon and machine gun fire. The Dutch pilot decided it was time to leave and jettisoned his cockpit canopy in order to be able to take to his 'chute. The German fighter flew into the canopy smashing its propellor forcing its pilot to bail out.
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by nikolas93TS View Post
          Fokker D.XXI, to spare the hassle for those who haven't identified the type.
          When it was conceived the new Fokker fighter had the type number D. 21 as Fokker decided to depart the older nomenclature using roman numerals, but all the world had become so used to the older style that somehow the Fokker D. 21 became known as Fokker D-XXI.
          The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by dutched View Post
            When it was conceived the new Fokker fighter had the type number D. 21 as Fokker decided to depart the older nomenclature using roman numerals, but all the world had become so used to the older style that somehow the Fokker D. 21 became known as Fokker D-XXI.
            Can you provide some background to that? It doesn't seem to gell. Fokker always used Arabic numerals for prototypes, so that the prototype for the D VII was the V18, and until sometime in 1915 also used them for production types and some experimental types up to about 1916 (Fokker M4 to M20z) and then adopted the official DL designation system (along with all other suppliers) and used Roman numerals for production aircraft. The original DXX1 was produced in 1936 to meet a Dutch East Indies specification and other later Fokker designs (the GIa and b and the DXXIII were identified with Roman numerals.
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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            • #7
              The Roman versus Arabic numbering usage is a case of habit trumping all. As has been pointed out, Fokker had always used Roman numbering. When they made the change, it didn't stick as people were used to their types using Roman number designations.

              In his book on the Fokker D.21 (linked to below) Dutch aviation historian Peter De Jong says the following on page 14 of the Lela press edition :
              In November [1934], this project known as Project 112, was designated DXXI or D.21; in 1935 Fokker offically decided, but not always in practice, to no longer use Roman numerals for the designation of their aircraft.
              (translated from the French)

              I've attached pictures from DeJong's book showing the D.21 and D.23 at official corporate displays, both types labeled with Roman numerals.


              Fokker D.21


              The G1 also was officially named with Arabic numerals.

              Website on G 1 by two Dutch authors



              Note Arabic numeral used in Paris on Fokker company display.

              The authors wrote this book

              Note company advertising on cover using Arabic numerals.

              However while the Fokker company officially made the change to Arabic numerals in 1935, in practice and out of habit, Roman numerals were frequently still used by the general public, many militaries and the aviation press out of force of habit more than anything. It is a practice that continues to the present day, particularly in English language histories.

              Here's a Dutch aviation website published in English but using the Arabic numbering:
              Fokker D.23
              Fokker D.21
              Fokker G.1 (note on this page the newsreel calls it the Fokker G I, a great example of how both Arabic and Roman numerals were used for the same type!)
              Attached Files
              Last edited by CarpeDiem; 14 Jun 16, 16:46.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by CarpeDiem View Post
                The Roman versus Arabic numbering usage is a case of habit trumping all. As has been pointed out, Fokker had always used Roman numbering.
                Completely incorrect as I pointed out They always used Arabic numbering for prototypes including the G prototypes and until 1915 they also used Arabic numbering for all aircraft. They changed to Roman numerals for production aircraft in 1915/16 because their customers (German and AH governments) told them to.
                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                  Completely incorrect as I pointed out They always used Arabic numbering for prototypes including the G prototypes and until 1915 they also used Arabic numbering for all aircraft. They changed to Roman numerals for production aircraft in 1915/16 because their customers (German and AH governments) told them to.
                  Thanks for the correction Mark.

                  Always glad to make sure I've got the correct information. I'll make sure not to make that mistake again . 👍😀

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                    Can you provide some background to that? It doesn't seem to gell. Fokker always used Arabic numerals for prototypes, so that the prototype for the D VII was the V18, and until sometime in 1915 also used them for production types and some experimental types up to about 1916 (Fokker M4 to M20z) and then adopted the official DL designation system (along with all other suppliers) and used Roman numerals for production aircraft. The original DXX1 was produced in 1936 to meet a Dutch East Indies specification and other later Fokker designs (the GIa and b and the DXXIII were identified with Roman numerals.
                    It proved a mismatch all the way There are Fokker Drawings showing D. 21 for production and drawings headed D XXI for designs with different engines. The manual shows the type as D. 21. Some contemporary publications mention D. 21 others D XXI. In correspondence with the Dutch Government, Fokker used D. 21 and the Dutch Government's reply the type was marked as D XXI. Let's assume safely that Antony Fokker did not give a hoot himself as long as he could make a sale.
                    The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

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