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    Hi everyone.

    I've joined this forum because I wish to gain a greater knowledge of the events of WW2. Now, in basic everyday conversations, I know much more about WW2 than most people (which is sad). However, I want to start digging deeper, to find out TRUE facts of many aspects of the war.

    I am certain I can learn more here than I can by simply googling info about WW2. Heres some specific areas that I wish to gain more trueful, accurate information.

    1. Can anyone be so kind as to point me in the direction of suitable documentaries and books that cast TRUE light on the war, not simply the victors versions or politically correct "info" that simply rehashes stories I learned in high school?

    2. The more I read about the the lives and careers of Hilter and Stalin, the more I seem to be creating a picture that Stalin was a FAR more horrible human being than HItler. ANd by that it doesn't mean that I hold Hitler in great esteem, but I find that Hitler seems to be simply a FAVORITE of scholars as a poster boy for all the evil doings of the war. But in reading, I see that STALIN, was the greater evil, not only in terms of numbers of murders in in terms of what kind of life he gave to his people. Even though Hilters actions eventually brought horror to his people, there was a time he greatly improved many aspects of their lives. Hitler seemed to direct his loathing to those NOT German or British, while Stalin seems simply to hate humity in general, russian as well as the rest of the world. It almost seems that Stalin has been given a pass on many things because he was on the sides of the victors. I'd like to find info on these men, both good AND bad...but I haven't really been successful. I either find sites that PRAISE Hitler, seeing him as a godsend, or sites that refuse to state ANY positives about him, for fear that he seem human, I guess.

    3. I'd like to hear opinions on who knowledgable people think was the BEST allied leader as well as the worst. I started off LOVING churchill, but have slowly started to see some warts....which is realistic, I guess. ANd I have always seen Roosevelt and an OVERRATED leader, one who seems to blindly trust Stalin, never believing any of the soviet horror stories of brutatlity.

    4. And lastly, where can I find real information of Allied actions in Germany after the war was over. I've read a little about the allied treatment of germans in de nazification processes, in their handling of the millions of German POWS, and the horrors of German relocation efforts. Some of what I read greatly disturbs me, so my curiosity has been peaked.

    Thank you for ANY information I can get. I apoligize if my post seems greedy in whating sources of knowledge, but I can just get so much from the history channel. If there was a better way of me posting this, please let me know.

    Again, thank you and l look forward to hearing from all the incredibly knowledgable people in this forum.

  • #2
    Welcome to the forums. If you use the forum search capability, you will see many of the topics already covered. You might want to start on some of those existing threads. People either feel their way like that, or start with something specific they are very interesting in and go from there.

    I must say I get a pro-German sense from you, which is of course your right.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you for the guide....its much appreciated. I will try that.

      UHm..pro german?? No, I don't THINK so....maybe you sense my surprise that I have in finding out that there is so much more the Germany's story than that which I was taught in high school and college. That teaching was so incredibly one sided that I was surprised to find out certain aspects of germany during the war. However, I can never be pro ANYTHING that was the cause of so much misery. If ANYTHING, I am pro AMERICAN, but realize two things now....

      A we were not as MORAL as we were made out to be in the past
      B we aren't as immoral and insignificant as what many make us out to be in the current anti american culture.

      That is my feelings AS OF TODAY. But, upon learning more, that may change and become more pro american or less pro american, depending on my findings.

      I really am after as much of the truth, whether it is pc or not, as I can find.

      Thank you again for taking the time out to send me in the right direction, it is much appreciated.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by gabagool View Post

        1. Can anyone be so kind as to point me in the direction of suitable documentaries and books that cast TRUE light on the war, not simply the victors versions or politically correct "info" that simply rehashes stories I learned in high school?
        Every historian has a bias. I found the BBC series World at War to be a good overview of the war, but it does not cover as deeply the Eastern Front as well as it could (cold war going on at the time). So David Glantz is highly recommended. Our Russian friends might also have useful sources too.

        Originally posted by gabagool View Post

        2. The more I read about the the lives and careers of Hilter and Stalin, the more I seem to be creating a picture that Stalin was a FAR more horrible human being than HItler. ANd by that it doesn't mean that I hold Hitler in great esteem, but I find that Hitler seems to be simply a FAVORITE of scholars as a poster boy for all the evil doings of the war. But in reading, I see that STALIN, was the greater evil, not only in terms of numbers of murders in in terms of what kind of life he gave to his people. Even though Hilters actions eventually brought horror to his people, there was a time he greatly improved many aspects of their lives. Hitler seemed to direct his loathing to those NOT German or British, while Stalin seems simply to hate humity in general, russian as well as the rest of the world. It almost seems that Stalin has been given a pass on many things because he was on the sides of the victors. I'd like to find info on these men, both good AND bad...but I haven't really been successful. I either find sites that PRAISE Hitler, seeing him as a godsend, or sites that refuse to state ANY positives about him, for fear that he seem human, I guess.
        Hitler loved dogs, hated smoking and was a vegetarian. He started cancer research in Germany. That being said; Hitler was bankrupting the Germans even without a war. I would recommend Wages of Destruction, but I need to read it myself. It still is highly praised here. Stalin, a Soviet Georgian, loved Russia. His big problem was paranoia. But he did masterful things to win the war. Unlike Hitler; he did let his generals general. The west disliked him because of the creation of a buffer around the Soviet Union (i.e. he didn't keep his promises), but when you think about the losses both civilian and military the Soviets losses in the war; it becomes understandable. Not saying he's a nice guy by any stretch of the imagination, but neither should he be compared to a Hitler.

        Originally posted by gabagool View Post
        3. I'd like to hear opinions on who knowledgable people think was the BEST allied leader as well as the worst. I started off LOVING churchill, but have slowly started to see some warts....which is realistic, I guess. ANd I have always seen Roosevelt and an OVERRATED leader, one who seems to blindly trust Stalin, never believing any of the soviet horror stories of brutatlity.
        I think you do FDR a major disservice. FDR did more than anybody to get the US ready for war. Don't forget the saying: An enemy of my enemy is my friend. Churchill meddled to much, in my opinion and set the British and Commonwealth back as much as he helped, but I am thinking when you say leader you are talking politically? I'd rank them: FDR, Stalin, Churchill then Truman. Truman gets an I (incomplete) because the war was nearly over. His one positive contribution was dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

        Originally posted by gabagool View Post
        4. And lastly, where can I find real information of Allied actions in Germany after the war was over. I've read a little about the allied treatment of germans in de nazification processes, in their handling of the millions of German POWS, and the horrors of German relocation efforts. Some of what I read greatly disturbs me, so my curiosity has been peaked.
        One needs to be very careful about the treatment of Germany after the war ended. They tend to fall into 2 camps. 1) Poor Germany was treated meanly after the war and lots and lots of POWs killed. Oh boo hoo! (This turns out to be a huge exaggeration. There is a good thread here (somewhere) on the POW deaths. 2) Look at all the nice things we did for Germany despite the Ratzi scumbags. The truth lies between these two camps. Really the ONLY country that could help all the nations in need was the US. But even then; the US could only do so much.

        To think about World War II one needs to keep in mind what i said above: ALL historians have a bias. Also when judging other nations and your own nation. It's nice to keep this in mind.



        Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_World_War_II (Very well researched and documented; esp. for Wikipedia.)

        Again welcome to ACG Forums!
        Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

        "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

        What didn't kill us; didn't make us smarter.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by gabagool View Post
          Hi everyone.

          1. Can anyone be so kind as to point me in the direction of suitable documentaries and books that cast TRUE light on the war, not simply the victors versions or politically correct "info" that simply rehashes stories I learned in high school?
          No. To date, there has not been a revised history of the War in the English language. Most of what you find is coloured by postwar politics, i.e. Cold War propaganda that demonizes the USSR and/or praises the virtues of the noble German warriors who murdered upwards of twenty million civilians while they were fighting those nasty Commies.

          2. The more I read about the the lives and careers of Hilter and Stalin, the more I seem to be creating a picture that Stalin was a FAR more horrible human being than HItler. ANd by that it doesn't mean that I hold Hitler in great esteem, but I find that Hitler seems to be simply a FAVORITE of scholars as a poster boy for all the evil doings of the war. But in reading, I see that STALIN, was the greater evil, not only in terms of numbers of murders in in terms of what kind of life he gave to his people. Even though Hilters actions eventually brought horror to his people, there was a time he greatly improved many aspects of their lives. Hitler seemed to direct his loathing to those NOT German or British, while Stalin seems simply to hate humity in general, russian as well as the rest of the world. It almost seems that Stalin has been given a pass on many things because he was on the sides of the victors. I'd like to find info on these men, both good AND bad...but I haven't really been successful. I either find sites that PRAISE Hitler, seeing him as a godsend, or sites that refuse to state ANY positives about him, for fear that he seem human, I guess.
          The same comment applies to how Stalin is described in English publications. Unless you read Russian, you are obliged to wade through endless piles of politically-slanted material. To understand Stalin, it is necessary to understand the USSR and its history, as well as prevailing world events and policies that sometimes effected his decisions.

          That is not to say that Stalin was not a ruthless, cynical man, but rather that his actions and policies have been interpreted through a rather distorted lens. Stalin remains an enigma to historians, whether they are writing in Russian or English. In the last twenty years, the records from Soviet archives have become available to historians. So far, with the exception of a very few authors, English-language historians have not availed themselves of them, probably because so few Anglo academics have any ability in Russian. In another twenty years, hopefully there wil have been sufficient progress that Stalin can be viewed accurately in the context of the 1930s and 1940s, rather than through Cold War presentations.

          3. I'd like to hear opinions on who knowledgable people think was the BEST allied leader as well as the worst. I started off LOVING churchill, but have slowly started to see some warts....which is realistic, I guess. ANd I have always seen Roosevelt and an OVERRATED leader, one who seems to blindly trust Stalin, never believing any of the soviet horror stories of brutatlity.
          There are lots of threads regarding this rhetorical question. Help yourself.

          4. And lastly, where can I find real information of Allied actions in Germany after the war was over. I've read a little about the allied treatment of germans in de nazification processes, in their handling of the millions of German POWS, and the horrors of German relocation efforts. Some of what I read greatly disturbs me, so my curiosity has been peaked.
          Again, descriptions of "Allied actions in Germany after the war" and de-Nazification were highly politicized after the war. By the early 1950s, it was important to have Germany as an ally in NATO, at all costs, which included sacrificing the "moral high ground" by enlisting former Nazis wholesale into the West German bureaucracy and military, as well as recruiting individual scientists in the fields of aviation, rocketry, etc into postwar military industries around the world. In all, the origins of the Cold War is an incredibly complex subject, and was in fact offered as a credit course spanning a full semester when I was in university. Either way, generally the descriptions of the war between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union have a strong pro-German, anti-Soviet bias as a result of that Cold War polarization. David Glantz is probably the most widely acknowledged historian writing on that topic today. Seek his books out first.

          In each case, these topics have been discussed on this forum over the years. Searching these threads out will yield a wealth of information, and absorb much of your time. It's worth it — there are many very knowledgeable people who participate here. There are also some real kooks, some of whom I believe are here largely to provide levity.

          Regards
          Scott Fraser
          Last edited by Scott Fraser; 16 Dec 12, 04:38.
          Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

          A contentedly cantankerous old fart

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by gabagool View Post
            Hi everyone.

            I've joined this forum because I wish to gain a greater knowledge of the events of WW2. Now, in basic everyday conversations, I know much more about WW2 than most people (which is sad). However, I want to start digging deeper, to find out TRUE facts of many aspects of the war.

            I am certain I can learn more here than I can by simply googling info about WW2. Heres some specific areas that I wish to gain more trueful, accurate information.

            1. Can anyone be so kind as to point me in the direction of suitable documentaries and books that cast TRUE light on the war, not simply the victors versions or politically correct "info" that simply rehashes stories I learned in high school?

            2. The more I read about the the lives and careers of Hilter and Stalin, the more I seem to be creating a picture that Stalin was a FAR more horrible human being than HItler. ANd by that it doesn't mean that I hold Hitler in great esteem, but I find that Hitler seems to be simply a FAVORITE of scholars as a poster boy for all the evil doings of the war. But in reading, I see that STALIN, was the greater evil, not only in terms of numbers of murders in in terms of what kind of life he gave to his people. Even though Hilters actions eventually brought horror to his people, there was a time he greatly improved many aspects of their lives. Hitler seemed to direct his loathing to those NOT German or British, while Stalin seems simply to hate humity in general, russian as well as the rest of the world. It almost seems that Stalin has been given a pass on many things because he was on the sides of the victors. I'd like to find info on these men, both good AND bad...but I haven't really been successful. I either find sites that PRAISE Hitler, seeing him as a godsend, or sites that refuse to state ANY positives about him, for fear that he seem human, I guess.

            3. I'd like to hear opinions on who knowledgable people think was the BEST allied leader as well as the worst. I started off LOVING churchill, but have slowly started to see some warts....which is realistic, I guess. ANd I have always seen Roosevelt and an OVERRATED leader, one who seems to blindly trust Stalin, never believing any of the soviet horror stories of brutatlity.

            4. And lastly, where can I find real information of Allied actions in Germany after the war was over. I've read a little about the allied treatment of germans in de nazification processes, in their handling of the millions of German POWS, and the horrors of German relocation efforts. Some of what I read greatly disturbs me, so my curiosity has been peaked.

            Thank you for ANY information I can get. I apoligize if my post seems greedy in whating sources of knowledge, but I can just get so much from the history channel. If there was a better way of me posting this, please let me know.

            Again, thank you and l look forward to hearing from all the incredibly knowledgable people in this forum.

            Stalin was evil and Hitler was misunderstood? Your premise on the first bit is at least right.

            The allies in their treatment of the Heer that surrendered in 45 was far worse than the Nazi treatment of Jews/Gypsys/Gays etc? You imply the same standards were used between the Nazis and the democracies.

            If you hadn't used upper case for some elements I might have thought you merely naive. I used to think Stalin was as evil as Hitler. Both were evil, but Hitler was a new low for humanity.

            Surprised you did not bring the bombing campaign into your post ?
            How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
            Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RichardS View Post
              To think about World War II one needs to keep in mind what i said above: ALL historians have a bias. Also when judging other nations and your own nation. It's nice to keep this in mind.



              Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_World_War_II (Very well researched and documented; esp. for Wikipedia.)

              Again welcome to ACG Forums!

              +1 when I get the chance.
              How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
              Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

              Comment


              • #8
                Besides the info shared above, if you hang around long enough you will come to understand that several of the members are highly informed on WWII. Not wanting to name drop, hang around - read some threads - ask some questions and you will find out who has the answers you seek.

                It is a great place to learn.
                "War is sorrowful, but there is one thing infinitely more horrible than the worst horrors of war, and that is the feeling that nothing is worth fighting for..."
                -- Harper's Weekly, December 31, 1864

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by gabagool View Post
                  Again, thank you and l look forward to hearing from all the incredibly knowledgable people in this forum.
                  Bomber Harris was perfectly right in ordering the bombing of Dresden.
                  The long toll of the brave
                  Is not lost in darkness
                  Over the fruitful earth
                  And athwart the seas
                  Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                  Unquenchable forever.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gabagool View Post
                    Hi everyone.

                    I've joined this forum because I wish to gain a greater knowledge of the events of WW2. Now, in basic everyday conversations, I know much more about WW2 than most people (which is sad). However, I want to start digging deeper, to find out TRUE facts of many aspects of the war.

                    I am certain I can learn more here than I can by simply googling info about WW2. Heres some specific areas that I wish to gain more trueful, accurate information.

                    1. Can anyone be so kind as to point me in the direction of suitable documentaries and books that cast TRUE light on the war, not simply the victors versions or politically correct "info" that simply rehashes stories I learned in high school?

                    2. The more I read about the the lives and careers of Hilter and Stalin, the more I seem to be creating a picture that Stalin was a FAR more horrible human being than HItler. ANd by that it doesn't mean that I hold Hitler in great esteem, but I find that Hitler seems to be simply a FAVORITE of scholars as a poster boy for all the evil doings of the war. But in reading, I see that STALIN, was the greater evil, not only in terms of numbers of murders in in terms of what kind of life he gave to his people. Even though Hilters actions eventually brought horror to his people, there was a time he greatly improved many aspects of their lives. Hitler seemed to direct his loathing to those NOT German or British, while Stalin seems simply to hate humity in general, russian as well as the rest of the world. It almost seems that Stalin has been given a pass on many things because he was on the sides of the victors. I'd like to find info on these men, both good AND bad...but I haven't really been successful. I either find sites that PRAISE Hitler, seeing him as a godsend, or sites that refuse to state ANY positives about him, for fear that he seem human, I guess.

                    3. I'd like to hear opinions on who knowledgable people think was the BEST allied leader as well as the worst. I started off LOVING churchill, but have slowly started to see some warts....which is realistic, I guess. ANd I have always seen Roosevelt and an OVERRATED leader, one who seems to blindly trust Stalin, never believing any of the soviet horror stories of brutatlity.

                    4. And lastly, where can I find real information of Allied actions in Germany after the war was over. I've read a little about the allied treatment of germans in de nazification processes, in their handling of the millions of German POWS, and the horrors of German relocation efforts. Some of what I read greatly disturbs me, so my curiosity has been peaked.

                    Thank you for ANY information I can get. I apoligize if my post seems greedy in whating sources of knowledge, but I can just get so much from the history channel. If there was a better way of me posting this, please let me know.

                    Again, thank you and l look forward to hearing from all the incredibly knowledgable people in this forum.

                    Welcome to the forums, gabagool.

                    Some meaty questions there.

                    About the only suggestion I would have made would be regarding the location for some of these questions. Of course, now that you have posted them all in the one place members are doing their best to answer (nice bunch of guys we have here ). We could just let it roll as it is and you will no doubt get some interesting and informative stuff. However, should you wish to re-post some or all of your questions in more appropriate locations within the WW2 forums, I would be more than happy to assist you. It would possibly work out better in the long run. So please do not hesitate to ask if you wish to do this and are not sure how to proceed.

                    Once again, welcome to ACG.

                    Regards,
                    panther3485
                    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks for all the comments.

                      I am thrilled because these comments were exactly what i was hoping for. You see, it gets depressing when I know SO LITTLE about the war, BUT I am a genuine HISTORIAN compared to most people. It is so tiring hearing the same old tired views, over and over again. The same FALSE stories, told to me as if they were stone cold facts. Finally, I can absorb and learn from people who have forgotten more than I know.

                      I will be back to re organize my questions, after I read some posted information being shared by people who have a lot to share. Thank you, very much, for spending the time to point me the right way. I hope to learn enough to get to the point where I can contribute to this forum with well thought out comments or questions, I realize I have a long way to go!

                      Much obliged to everyone.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by gabagool View Post
                        Hi everyone.

                        I've joined this forum because I wish to gain a greater knowledge of the events of WW2. Now, in basic everyday conversations, I know much more about WW2 than most people (which is sad). However, I want to start digging deeper, to find out TRUE facts of many aspects of the war.

                        I am certain I can learn more here than I can by simply googling info about WW2. Heres some specific areas that I wish to gain more trueful, accurate information.

                        1. Can anyone be so kind as to point me in the direction of suitable documentaries and books that cast TRUE light on the war, not simply the victors versions or politically correct "info" that simply rehashes stories I learned in high school?

                        2. The more I read about the the lives and careers of Hilter and Stalin, the more I seem to be creating a picture that Stalin was a FAR more horrible human being than HItler. ANd by that it doesn't mean that I hold Hitler in great esteem, but I find that Hitler seems to be simply a FAVORITE of scholars as a poster boy for all the evil doings of the war. But in reading, I see that STALIN, was the greater evil, not only in terms of numbers of murders in in terms of what kind of life he gave to his people. Even though Hilters actions eventually brought horror to his people, there was a time he greatly improved many aspects of their lives. Hitler seemed to direct his loathing to those NOT German or British, while Stalin seems simply to hate humity in general, russian as well as the rest of the world. It almost seems that Stalin has been given a pass on many things because he was on the sides of the victors. I'd like to find info on these men, both good AND bad...but I haven't really been successful. I either find sites that PRAISE Hitler, seeing him as a godsend, or sites that refuse to state ANY positives about him, for fear that he seem human, I guess.

                        3. I'd like to hear opinions on who knowledgable people think was the BEST allied leader as well as the worst. I started off LOVING churchill, but have slowly started to see some warts....which is realistic, I guess. ANd I have always seen Roosevelt and an OVERRATED leader, one who seems to blindly trust Stalin, never believing any of the soviet horror stories of brutatlity.

                        4. And lastly, where can I find real information of Allied actions in Germany after the war was over. I've read a little about the allied treatment of germans in de nazification processes, in their handling of the millions of German POWS, and the horrors of German relocation efforts. Some of what I read greatly disturbs me, so my curiosity has been peaked.

                        Thank you for ANY information I can get. I apoligize if my post seems greedy in whating sources of knowledge, but I can just get so much from the history channel. If there was a better way of me posting this, please let me know.

                        Again, thank you and l look forward to hearing from all the incredibly knowledgable people in this forum.
                        Postwar Germans living in the Western Allies sector had little to complain about regarding their treatment. The Americans and British gave them all help possible towards normality. I do know for a fact that those living in the British areas were fed from day 1. Regarding treatment of German POWs during the war, those that were kept in the UK,were treated extremely well and those that elected to work on farms etc: were even allowed to sleep out if the farmers were agreeable and had the facilities. lcm1
                        'By Horse by Tram'.


                        I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                        " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by gabagool View Post
                          Thanks for all the comments.

                          I am thrilled because these comments were exactly what i was hoping for. You see, it gets depressing when I know SO LITTLE about the war, BUT I am a genuine HISTORIAN compared to most people. It is so tiring hearing the same old tired views, over and over again. The same FALSE stories, told to me as if they were stone cold facts. Finally, I can absorb and learn from people who have forgotten more than I know.

                          I will be back to re organize my questions, after I read some posted information being shared by people who have a lot to share. Thank you, very much, for spending the time to point me the right way. I hope to learn enough to get to the point where I can contribute to this forum with well thought out comments or questions, I realize I have a long way to go!

                          Much obliged to everyone.
                          A common complaint these days. Some of the things you hear from people are, shatteringly, wrong, misinformed or outright lies. All, of course, put forth as truth. The schools are not what they were.

                          You have definitely come to the right place. A few of the folks on this board could write books. Enjoy.
                          “Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic”
                          --Fyodor Dostoevsky

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It's gonna take awhile but you will get there it has taken years for me to only slightly get a grasp course I aint as bright as a lot of fellas. Seriously there are a lot of folks on here will teach you a lot if you are willing to get proved wrong here and there, hell they taught me and you have know idea how hard that is Merry Christmas and welcome!!!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think you would do good by checking out several relevant threads which will shed some light on the questions you're raising, if not answer them at all.

                              German 6th Army - on the treatment of POWs by the Soviet and German sides. Not just the situation in Stalingrad, as the name suggests.

                              Reinterpetation of Stalin

                              Discussing the Holocaust?
                              www.histours.ru

                              Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

                              Comment

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