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  • A Comparison ?? Not really

    After several inquiries9and some confusion), I've decided to change the theme of this thread.

    It is a place to post links and documents concerning the treatment of Soviet POWs by both Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union.
    Last edited by tigersqn; 06 Oct 12, 10:11.
    Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

  • #2
    A New Important Source: The Card Index of the Soviet POWs

    Only a few years ago historians said it would be impossible to discover the fate of any Soviet POW in this precise way. Because of the racial—Nazis considered Slavs an inferior race—and anticommunist war against the Soviet Union, Germans treated these captured soldiers much worse than those of other countries.2 The Germans justified such treatment with the argument that the Soviet Union had not signed the Geneva Convention of 1929. This convention demanded, among other things, registering each POW’s basic military and personal data. Registration meant some legal security because all the names were posted to the International Red Cross and from there to the home country, so it constituted a kind of responsibility toward those who had been captured. But in the case of the Soviet POWs, the German Army did without registration because the Germans were not interested, historians said, in the fate of “communists,” and if many of them died, it would not be the Germans’ problem.

    The example of Aleksej Schurawljow shows that this opinion is incorrect. As
    far as the bureaucracy was concerned, he was treated in nearly the same way as any American or British soldier in German captivity. He was registered in the second camp he came to, and his death was registered as well. And it was just normal procedure for the Hammelburg camp administration to forward his file cards later to Berlin to the Wehrmachtauskunftstelle (WASt), which officially collected all information on German soldiers as well as on POWs (e.g., transfers to other camps, hospitalization, or death).

    Because of the increased bombing in 1943, all these POW files of the WASt
    were taken to Meiningen (Thuringia), where they were discovered by American troops in April 1945. Four months later they handed over the card index of the Soviet POWs to the Red Army. And from that moment on, the files vanished. Their absence, and the lack of bureaucratic sources on Red Army soldiers in the German archives at all, seemed to substantiate the opinion of those historians mentioned above.

    But in fact the cards of the confirmed dead were brought to what is called today
    the Central Archive of the Russian Ministry of Defense (CAMO), at Podolsk.3 The
    cards of Soviet soldiers thought to be still alive were checked by the secret service, the NKVD, and afterward kept in its archive for the oblast in which they lived. And all these indexes are still in the possession of its successors in the Belorussian KGB Archives of Minsk, Brest, Witebsk, and the other oblast capitals as well as in that of the Russian secret service (FSB) in Moscow.4

    In 1997 my fellow historian Rolf Keller and I were invited by the Russian
    General Staff to see the WASt files in Podolsk. After our return we published a paper on our results and in which we publicly asked that these files be completely opened for scientific and humanitarian reasons, and for the work of the memorials in all the countries German troops had run POW camps. Supported by institutions such as the German Bundesarchiv and the Red Cross in Germany, Russia, and Belarus, a combined German-Russian project was launched in September 2000 (Belarus took part in 2002).
    It included opening up the card index of some 50,000 captured Soviet officers. The
    work at Podolsk and Moscow was finished at the end of 2002, and as a result the
    personal card of Aleksej Schurawljow can be seen. After that the project started to
    work on noncommissioned officers and enlisted men, and in the end their names will be released, too—more than 400,000 in total.5 This number will be doubled by all the files that lie—still unrevealed—in the archives of the various secret services. The following short survey on the fate of the Soviet POWs is based mostly on the Podolsk and KGB material and on that of the German Bundesarchiv Militärarchiv.


    http://www.ushmm.org/research/center...5-10/paper.pdf


    The survey itself(not really a survey, more a very short synopsis) is found beginning on page 129 of the attached link.
    Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

    Comment


    • #3
      Once the inevitable happens, instead of closing this thread, I suggest that it be moved to the Barracks.
      And that the pointer leading from here to there be left up for double the usual amount of time.


      Have fun, guys!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
        This is a thread started for Shaa's benefit.
        A place for all to post accounts or documentation of Nazi atrocities against Soviet civilians and Soviet atrocities against German civilians.

        I'm hoping by having a thread like this, that other threads won't get continually derailed by peoples emotional baggage.
        I thought of opening such thread on the Nazi atrocities in the USSR in relation to different groups of the population, and probably I'll do it after the weekend when I have more time for this. There's no need to mix everything in one thread.

        I still don't exactly understand what you want to achieve by this "comparison" of personal accounts - or whatever you meant by the post title. If you post 50 accounts of the 100 000 civilians wronged by the Red Army, and I post 10 accounts of the 1 000 000 civilians wronged by the Wehrmacht, does it mean the Red Army was more culpable?
        www.histours.ru

        Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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        • #5
          Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
          This is a thread started for Shaa's benefit.
          A place for all to post accounts or documentation of Nazi atrocities against Soviet civilians and Soviet atrocities against German civilians.

          I'm hoping by having a thread like this, that other threads won't get continually derailed by peoples emotional baggage.
          I'm not too sure what this thread hopes to achieve?

          That the Soviets commited atrocities is not in question. Once the Red Army began to recapture area once under Nazi rule, all pleasantries were out of the window.

          However, for anyone to state that the Red Army was as evil as the Heer does not stand comparrison. For a start, the Soviet masses were not plied with the propaganda toxin of their superiority and greater worth than others pre WW2. The Soviets were the complete opposite in this regard pre invasion. That is the heart of the issue, and even during the war the Soviet mesage to the coomon person was that together (brothers and sisters used more than frequently) we will win. Soviets may have suffered rage and even hatred at the initial Nazi atrocities, but there was never the same institutionalised destruction of people for being different.

          Stalin may have been evil, but the Red Army was not in the same league as the Heer. Not by miles.
          How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
          Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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          • #6
            I just wish I could find the truths but for now I will just stand with 2 wrongs don't make a right much less a half dozen of em. In all sincerity the Japanese could have killed more people then ALL the European countries and North Americans combined but we will never know.
            I don't think the Allies can be given a pass either there was Dresden and many other firestorms when they served no purpose it appears other than reprisal if some of the stuff I read ( don't remember where) is to be believed.
            Anyway thanks for opening the thread.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
              I'm not too sure what this thread hopes to achieve?
              Just what it says (post #1)

              That the Soviets commited atrocities is not in question. Once the Red Army began to recapture area once under Nazi rule, all pleasantries were out of the window.
              True. As I've seen it called on many websites, it was a war of annihilation.


              However, for anyone to state that the Red Army was as evil as the Heer does not stand comparrison. For a start, the Soviet masses were not plied with the propaganda toxin of their superiority and greater worth than others pre WW2. The Soviets were the complete opposite in this regard pre invasion. That is the heart of the issue, and even during the war the Soviet mesage to the coomon person was that together (brothers and sisters used more than frequently) we will win. Soviets may have suffered rage and even hatred at the initial Nazi atrocities, but there was never the same institutionalised destruction of people for being different.

              Stalin may have been evil, but the Red Army was not in the same league as the Heer. Not by miles.

              No the 2 sides are not comparable, nor is this thread a comparison of the two sides.

              Maybe you should read the title again.
              Last edited by tigersqn; 05 Oct 12, 21:07.
              Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Brumbear View Post
                I just wish I could find the truths but for now I will just stand with 2 wrongs don't make a right much less a half dozen of em. In all sincerity the Japanese could have killed more people then ALL the European countries and North Americans combined but we will never know.
                I don't think the Allies can be given a pass either there was Dresden and many other firestorms when they served no purpose it appears other than reprisal if some of the stuff I read ( don't remember where) is to be believed.
                Anyway thanks for opening the thread.
                I never witnessed or saw the results of German atrocities ( I am not saying that it did not happen) but I did come in contact with many German POWs and also civilians. The servicemen (yes some were obvious Nazi's) but the large majority of them were average sort of blokes very much like us, only on the other side and had been doing just as we had been doing up to their point of capture.My point being you cannot 'tar everybody with the same brush'. lcm1
                'By Horse by Tram'.


                I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                  I never witnessed or saw the results of German atrocities ( I am not saying that it did not happen) but I did come in contact with many German POWs and also civilians. The servicemen (yes some were obvious Nazi's) but the large majority of them were average sort of blokes very much like us, only on the other side and had been doing just as we had been doing up to their point of capture.My point being you cannot 'tar everybody with the same brush'. lcm1
                  Good point, mate!
                  "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                    I thought of opening such thread on the Nazi atrocities in the USSR in relation to different groups of the population, and probably I'll do it after the weekend when I have more time for this. There's no need to mix everything in one thread.
                    I think that would be a good idea.


                    I still don't exactly understand what you want to achieve by this "comparison" of personal accounts - or whatever you meant by the post title. If you post 50 accounts of the 100 000 civilians wronged by the Red Army, and I post 10 accounts of the 1 000 000 civilians wronged by the Wehrmacht, does it mean the Red Army was more culpable?

                    Of course not. And it's not a comparison, the title itself says it's not.

                    In the past few months, a great number of threads have been derailed when they make any mention of the Soviets committing any kind of actions that could be construed as questionable.
                    This thread is an attempt (possibly futile) in minimising that effect.


                    As a further note, I also think it would be a good idea if a "holocaust" sub-section were to be included in the WW2 section(to include all manner of atrocity related threads) but that is a decision for others.
                    Last edited by tigersqn; 05 Oct 12, 21:05.
                    Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
                      Just what it says (post #1)



                      True. As I've seen it called on many websites, it was a war of annihilation.





                      No the 2 sides are not comparable, nor is this thread a comparison of the two sides.

                      Maybe you should read the title again.
                      Still .
                      It almost like asking if the US or the Japanese treated their prisoners the worst? There is no comparrison.
                      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        "In August 1941 Hitler permitted a Red Cross delegation to visit the camp for Soviet POWs in Hammerstadt. It is these contacts that resulted in an appeal to the Soviet government, requesting that it should send food parcels for our officers and men. We are prepared to fulfill and comply with the norms of the Geneva convention, Moscow said in its reply, but sending food in the given situation and under fascist control is the same as making presents to the enemy. "



                        "[To the] Commanders of the troops of the First and Second Byelorussian Fronts [Army Groups], and the First, Second, Third and Fourth Ukrainian Fronts ...

                        The Military Councils of the Fronts shall form camps in [rear-zone] service areas for the accommodation and maintenance of former prisoners of war and repatriated Soviet citizens -- each camp for 10,000 persons. All in all, there shall be formed: at the Second Byelorussian Front -- 15 [camps]; at the First Byelorussian Front -- 30; at the First Ukrainian Front -- 30; at the Fourth Ukrainian Front -- 5; at the Second Ukrainian Front -- 10; at the Third Ukrainian Front -- 10 camps ...

                        The check-up [of the former prisoners of war and repatriated citizens] shall be entrusted as follows: former Red Army servicemen -- to the bodies of SMERSH counter-intelligence; civilians -- to the commissions of the NKVD, NKGB, SMERSH ...

                        J. Stalin"


                        "And search I did. Maj.-Gen. Pyotr Mishchenkov, First Deputy Chief of the present-day Main Administration for Corrective Affairs (GUID) at the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs, was sincerely surprised: "This is the first I heard about this. I would be glad to help, but there is nothing I can do about it. I know that there was a colony in the Chunsky district of the Irkutsk Region. People got there after being checked up at the filtering camps mentioned in Stalin's order. They were all convicted under Article 58 -- high treason."



                        It would appear that the death toll among Soviet POWs in German custody perished at least partly as a result of the policies of the Stalin government.
                        Last edited by tigersqn; 07 Oct 12, 08:41.
                        Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          To compare the treatment of the Soviet POW by the Germans,with the same by the Soviets,is irrelevant and comparing apples to lemons :the Germans had certain obligations to the Soviet POW,the Soviet Union not .
                          The SU also had no obligation to send food to Soviet POW,it was on the Germans to feed them.The convention of Genève said clearly that it was on those who took the prisonners,to feed them .US and Britain were responsible for the German POW,not Germany.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                            To compare the treatment of the Soviet POW by the Germans,with the same by the Soviets,is irrelevant and comparing apples to lemons
                            Perhaps, but my latest post shows the degree of concern with which the Soviet government held it's own soldiers.



                            :the Germans had certain obligations to the Soviet POW,the Soviet Union not .
                            The Soviet Union had no obligations towards it's own soldiers ?
                            I'm glad I wasn't born Soviet.


                            The SU also had no obligation to send food to Soviet POW,it was on the Germans to feed them.The convention of Genève said clearly that it was on those who took the prisonners,to feed them
                            Again, perhaps, but it shows the level of concern with which the Soviet government held it's soldiers.


                            .US and Britain were responsible for the German POW,not Germany.

                            Completely irrelevant to this thread.
                            Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
                              "In August 1941 Hitler permitted a Red Cross delegation to visit the camp for Soviet POWs in Hammerstadt. It is these contacts that resulted in an appeal to the Soviet government, requesting that it should send food parcels for our officers and men. We are prepared to fulfill and comply with the norms of the Geneva convention, Moscow said in its reply, but sending food in the given situation and under fascist control is the same as making presents to the enemy. "

                              It would appear that the death toll among Soviet POWs in German custody perished at least partly as a result of the policies of the Stalin government.

                              These excerpts were taken from the following site.

                              http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/Teplyakov.html
                              On July 17, 1941 the Soviet Union addressed the Nazi government via Sweden that it would be ready and willing to comply with the Geneva convention if the Nazi government would reciprocate. The Nazis refused. What would be the point of sending parcels to the side which refused to honour the rights of Soviet POWs?

                              This is a rather lame cop out and a desperate attempt to make excuses for the Nazis on your part. It's very similar to the excuse the Nazis made when they referred to the Geneva Convention - looking plausible to those who don't know anything about the subject but complete BS for those who would check it. Cut the sh**t, tiger, you are always rushing to the defense of the Nazis wherever the Soviets/Russians are involved. You're now grabbing by straws, and quite filthy ones - the "IHR institute" is one of the leading Nazi apologia and Holocaust denial websites. Here's a quote from its "About" page

                              http://www.ihr.org/main/about.shtml

                              Through books, booklets, leaflets, audio and video discs, broadcast interviews, meetings, conferences, mailings, websites and e-mail, we work to provide factual information and sound perspective on US foreign policy, World War Two, the Israel-Palestine conflict, Middle East history, the Jewish-Zionist role in cultural and political life, the "Holocaust" remembrance campaign, war propaganda, and much more.
                              Emphasis mine.

                              "And search I did. Maj.-Gen. Pyotr Mishchenkov, First Deputy Chief of the present-day Main Administration for Corrective Affairs (GUID) at the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs, was sincerely surprised: "This is the first I heard about this. I would be glad to help, but there is nothing I can do about it. I know that there was a colony in the Chunsky district of the Irkutsk Region. People got there after being checked up at the filtering camps mentioned in Stalin's order. They were all convicted under Article 58 -- high treason."
                              First of all, Article 58 had numerous clauses, and "high treason" was one of the 20-something. Second, there are no references to any documents. Unlike many cases of Nazi atrocities which were reported in eyewitness accounts, Soviet prison camp records were kept pretty well. What this guy is stating is that he heard of a camp where "all people were sent". Great info.

                              As for the numbers of Soviet POWs sent to prison camps - here's a quote from my older post dealing with this:

                              Here is a quote from Zemskov's article about GULAG, taken from Pyhalov's book (http://militera.lib.ru/research/pyhalov_i/12.html), which deals with the numbers of former Soviet POWs sent to Soviet filtration camps up to March 1, 1944. Of 312 594 Red Army soldiers, 1799 died, 8255 were sent to penal batallions and 11283 were arrested. Therefore, about 75,1% passed the filtration without any serious punishment. There is one blank spot in this chart, though, as there is no stipulation on what happened to 56 403 people, and the author suggests they were still undergoing filtration by the moment the report was made.
                              www.histours.ru

                              Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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