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  • Last Mutiny in British Royal Navy

    This weekend marked the 81st anniversary-on September 15- of the only serious mutiny by ordinary matelots and some Royal Marines on September 15 1931 in batleship row at Invergordon, Morayshire, Scotland, in protest at pay cuts of beteen 25 and 10 per cent that Britain's Coalition govt imposed in 1931. After the finacial crisis of August 1931 caused Great Britain to go off the Gold Standard which since 1925, had fixed the parity of the British Pound Sterling at $4 to the £-an artificially high figure that made British exports 10 per cent dearer in world markets-exacerbating an already rising unemployment rate in Britain which peaked in 1931 at three million.
    The Second World War link is that some famous Royal Navy battleship's crews took part in the 1931 Invergordon Mutiny-HMS Hood -ten years away from extinction in 1941) Dorsetshire -which fired the torpedoes which administered the coup de grace to ''Bismarck '' in May 1941, before ''Dorsetshire ' was herself, sunk by Japanese aircraft in the Indian Ocean near Ceylon (modern Sri Lanka); HMS Nelson and Valiant too all had mutinying crews -which included Royal Marines traditionally on board to quell lower deck insurrections.
    The mutineers were led by Communist navyman, Len Wincott-who was subsequently ''rewarded ' by his Soviet masters with 10 years in a Gulag between 1947-57-although he survived to team up in Moscow with arch British traitor, Donald McLean of Burgess & McLean infamy.
    The mutiny achieved two objectives- one deliberate the other unintentional-the 25 per cent pay cuts were abandoned by the British govt while the 10 per cent reductions stayed in force.
    Meanwhile, the Invergordon mutiny sparked a finacial crisis which -beneficially- resulted in Britain abandoning Winston Churchill's disastrous (when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1925) of putting Britain back on the pre-1914 Gold Standard which ramped up British export costs in world markets -great wartime leader, Churchill, -lousy peacetime politician)
    Thus the Coalition govt reverted to the more realistic exchange rate of around $3-45 cents to the British £ after 1931 and cut interest rates to 2 per cent.
    THe 1931 Invergordon mutineers were luckier than Ricahrd Parker -leader of the 1797 mutiny at the Nore in Nelson's navy. Parker was hanged at the yardarm-400 matelots involved in the Invergordon mutiny were simply dismissed the service.
    However, one of the mutiny leaders, Fred Copeman became -during the 1936-39 Spanish Civil War the Commander of the British battalion of the International Brigade.
    Thankfully, mutines among Britain's servicemen in the 20th century have been few and far between.
    During the First World War, there was the British Army mutiny at the base camp of Etaples, France-heavily fictionalised in the British tv programme -''The Monocoled Mutineer''-a mutiny by Scottish infantry veterans from North Africa on the 1943 Salerno beachead; and the last one that I can recall was in the ''Swinging Sixties '' when some Guardsmen from one of the Brigade of Guards staged a brief mutiny-in 1964- at Pirbright barracks in southern England.
    THe only American naval mutiny that I know of was the fictional ''Caine Mutiny'' a novel written by Herman Wouk and filmed in 1954 staring Humphrey Bogart as the seriously loopy ''Captain Queeg''

  • #2
    Originally posted by Toomtabard View Post
    This weekend marked the 81st anniversary-on September 15- of the only serious mutiny by ordinary matelots and some Royal Marines on September 15 1931 in batleship row at Invergordon, Morayshire, Scotland, in protest at pay cuts of beteen 25 and 10 per cent that Britain's Coalition govt imposed in 1931. After the finacial crisis of August 1931 caused Great Britain to go off the Gold Standard which since 1925, had fixed the parity of the British Pound Sterling at $4 to the £-an artificially high figure that made British exports 10 per cent dearer in world markets-exacerbating an already rising unemployment rate in Britain which peaked in 1931 at three million.
    The Second World War link is that some famous Royal Navy battleship's crews took part in the 1931 Invergordon Mutiny-HMS Hood -ten years away from extinction in 1941) Dorsetshire -which fired the torpedoes which administered the coup de grace to ''Bismarck '' in May 1941, before ''Dorsetshire ' was herself, sunk by Japanese aircraft in the Indian Ocean near Ceylon (modern Sri Lanka); HMS Nelson and Valiant too all had mutinying crews -which included Royal Marines traditionally on board to quell lower deck insurrections.
    The mutineers were led by Communist navyman, Len Wincott-who was subsequently ''rewarded ' by his Soviet masters with 10 years in a Gulag between 1947-57-although he survived to team up in Moscow with arch British traitor, Donald McLean of Burgess & McLean infamy.
    The mutiny achieved two objectives- one deliberate the other unintentional-the 25 per cent pay cuts were abandoned by the British govt while the 10 per cent reductions stayed in force.
    Meanwhile, the Invergordon mutiny sparked a finacial crisis which -beneficially- resulted in Britain abandoning Winston Churchill's disastrous (when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1925) of putting Britain back on the pre-1914 Gold Standard which ramped up British export costs in world markets -great wartime leader, Churchill, -lousy peacetime politician)
    Thus the Coalition govt reverted to the more realistic exchange rate of around $3-45 cents to the British £ after 1931 and cut interest rates to 2 per cent.
    THe 1931 Invergordon mutineers were luckier than Ricahrd Parker -leader of the 1797 mutiny at the Nore in Nelson's navy. Parker was hanged at the yardarm-400 matelots involved in the Invergordon mutiny were simply dismissed the service.
    However, one of the mutiny leaders, Fred Copeman became -during the 1936-39 Spanish Civil War the Commander of the British battalion of the International Brigade.
    Thankfully, mutines among Britain's servicemen in the 20th century have been few and far between.
    During the First World War, there was the British Army mutiny at the base camp of Etaples, France-heavily fictionalised in the British tv programme -''The Monocoled Mutineer''-a mutiny by Scottish infantry veterans from North Africa on the 1943 Salerno beachead; and the last one that I can recall was in the ''Swinging Sixties '' when some Guardsmen from one of the Brigade of Guards staged a brief mutiny-in 1964- at Pirbright barracks in southern England.
    THe only American naval mutiny that I know of was the fictional ''Caine Mutiny'' a novel written by Herman Wouk and filmed in 1954 staring Humphrey Bogart as the seriously loopy ''Captain Queeg''
    Hi Tt,I know very little about the Mutiny and find it hard to imagine 'Bootnecks' taking part in a mutiny,in defence of the finest Corps in the World I can only say that they must have been very few!! O.K. call me one eyed but I think you would get the same reaction from anyone who has served in the Royal Corps. lcm1
    'By Horse by Tram'.


    I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
    " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
      Hi Tt,I know very little about the Mutiny and find it hard to imagine 'Bootnecks' taking part in a mutiny,in defence of the finest Corps in the World I can only say that they must have been very few!! O.K. call me one eyed but I think you would get the same reaction from anyone who has served in the Royal Corps. lcm1
      Depends on what ship they were on. Some did, some didn't, most stayed in their mess decks.

      There have been quite a few people who claimed to be ring leaders of the mutiny. According to my grandad, who was in the wet canteen and on the football pitch there weren't any. And when Len Willcott wrote his book in the seventies and ended up on tv grandad didn't recognise him as any of the people that addressed either meeting. Len appears to have been a bit of a mutiny walt. Each ship made it's own decision then sent a signal to the admiralty, copies of the signal were then distributed to all on board.

      As you remember the rules in the Andrew make voting for a spokesman to speak for a ships company is an act of mutiny in itself. So they took great steps to ensure there weren't any.

      We still have my grandads. My mum won't let me frame it.
      "Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

      Comment


      • #4
        ICIM-As much as I admire the Royal Marines...

        As much as I admire the Royal Marines (I attended the same Edinburgh High School as the only British Royal Marine to win the Victoria Cross in World War Two-Corporal Thomas Peck Hunter) the Royal Marines, in common with many fine regiments-had have their black sheep.
        Here is a sample:
        In 1915 the Royal Navy Q-Ship ''Baralong' 's Royal Marines acting under orders from the ''Baralong's'' Captain Lt-Commander HERBERT - shot with rifle fire and murdered German survivors of U-27. Who were defenceless With some of the German U boat crew actually ascending rescue ladders slung over the side of ''Baralong''from the ocean when they were executed in this summary fashion.
        The Royal Marines then boarded the merchant ship ''Nicosan' which U.27 had been attacking and hunted down and murdered six U.27 survivors-like Toffs on a grouse moor- seeking to avoid the fate of their comrades by hiding in the engine room of ''Nicosan''.
        This act was covered up by the Admirality in a similar morally dubious fashion to South Yorkshire police's recently exposed cover up of the 1989 'Hillsborough Disaster''.
        In May 1941 again acting under orders from the Captain of the British submarine ''HMS Torbay'' another product of the Edinburgh education system albeit the highly socially exclusive and expensive Edinburgh Academy-Lt-Commander Anthony Meirs V.C. ordered seven German 'Gebirge'' mountain troops captured after ''Torbay'' had sunk the caique they had been intercepted in in the' Med'' sea and had a Royal Marine Corporal shoot all these defenceless Germans in the rubber boat.
        To his credit one Royal Marine-a Corporal Sherwood- refused absolutely to take part in any illegal action against the defenceless Germans and did not do so.
        Also, the ''Jimmy the One'' on ''Torbay refused to shoot the hapless Germans when Meirs ordered him to do so.
        Both the ''Baralong' case and the '' Torbay'' case involving those errant Marines in both cases was a breach of Article 11 of the Hague Convention governing the treatment of survivors of naval actions in war -especially those defenceless in the water.
        I recite these cases not to blacken the British Royal Marine Corps but because I abhor cover ups that refuse to acknowledge that sometimes we Brits armed forces have not always acted nobly.

        Comment


        • #5
          Salerno wasn't a mutiny in the true sense, they were recovered casualties being returned to units other thatn their own. They wanted to rejoin their origianl units.

          It reflects the fundamental flaw in the regimental system.

          Comment


          • #6
            The last mutiny was hms Apollo in the early sixties I think. There may have been on one Somerset about ten years back.
            "Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Toomtabard View Post
              As much as I admire the Royal Marines (I attended the same Edinburgh High School as the only British Royal Marine to win the Victoria Cross in World War Two-Corporal Thomas Peck Hunter) the Royal Marines, in common with many fine regiments-had have their black sheep.
              Here is a sample:
              In 1915 the Royal Navy Q-Ship ''Baralong' 's Royal Marines acting under orders from the ''Baralong's'' Captain Lt-Commander HERBERT - shot with rifle fire and murdered German survivors of U-27. Who were defenceless With some of the German U boat crew actually ascending rescue ladders slung over the side of ''Baralong''from the ocean when they were executed in this summary fashion.
              The Royal Marines then boarded the merchant ship ''Nicosan' which U.27 had been attacking and hunted down and murdered six U.27 survivors-like Toffs on a grouse moor- seeking to avoid the fate of their comrades by hiding in the engine room of ''Nicosan''.
              This act was covered up by the Admirality in a similar morally dubious fashion to South Yorkshire police's recently exposed cover up of the 1989 'Hillsborough Disaster''.
              In May 1941 again acting under orders from the Captain of the British submarine ''HMS Torbay'' another product of the Edinburgh education system albeit the highly socially exclusive and expensive Edinburgh Academy-Lt-Commander Anthony Meirs V.C. ordered seven German 'Gebirge'' mountain troops captured after ''Torbay'' had sunk the caique they had been intercepted in in the' Med'' sea and had a Royal Marine Corporal shoot all these defenceless Germans in the rubber boat.
              To his credit one Royal Marine-a Corporal Sherwood- refused absolutely to take part in any illegal action against the defenceless Germans and did not do so.
              Also, the ''Jimmy the One'' on ''Torbay refused to shoot the hapless Germans when Meirs ordered him to do so.
              Both the ''Baralong' case and the '' Torbay'' case involving those errant Marines in both cases was a breach of Article 11 of the Hague Convention governing the treatment of survivors of naval actions in war -especially those defenceless in the water.
              I recite these cases not to blacken the British Royal Marine Corps but because I abhor cover ups that refuse to acknowledge that sometimes we Brits armed forces have not always acted nobly.
              Perhaps they witnessed the German air force firing on HMS Kashmir survivors in the water?
              Who in turn perhaps witnessed the RN rout of many German ad-hoc troop transport vessels.
              By the way what exactly is the Royal Marine "corp"?
              Sounds like a cross between our cross pond cousins and ourselves.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Toomtabard View Post
                As much as I admire the Royal Marines (I attended the same Edinburgh High School as the only British Royal Marine to win the Victoria Cross in World War Two-Corporal Thomas Peck Hunter) the Royal Marines, in common with many fine regiments-had have their black sheep.
                Here is a sample:
                In 1915 the Royal Navy Q-Ship ''Baralong' 's Royal Marines acting under orders from the ''Baralong's'' Captain Lt-Commander HERBERT - shot with rifle fire and murdered German survivors of U-27. Who were defenceless With some of the German U boat crew actually ascending rescue ladders slung over the side of ''Baralong''from the ocean when they were executed in this summary fashion.
                The Royal Marines then boarded the merchant ship ''Nicosan' which U.27 had been attacking and hunted down and murdered six U.27 survivors-like Toffs on a grouse moor- seeking to avoid the fate of their comrades by hiding in the engine room of ''Nicosan''.
                This act was covered up by the Admirality in a similar morally dubious fashion to South Yorkshire police's recently exposed cover up of the 1989 'Hillsborough Disaster''.
                In May 1941 again acting under orders from the Captain of the British submarine ''HMS Torbay'' another product of the Edinburgh education system albeit the highly socially exclusive and expensive Edinburgh Academy-Lt-Commander Anthony Meirs V.C. ordered seven German 'Gebirge'' mountain troops captured after ''Torbay'' had sunk the caique they had been intercepted in in the' Med'' sea and had a Royal Marine Corporal shoot all these defenceless Germans in the rubber boat.
                To his credit one Royal Marine-a Corporal Sherwood- refused absolutely to take part in any illegal action against the defenceless Germans and did not do so.
                Also, the ''Jimmy the One'' on ''Torbay refused to shoot the hapless Germans when Meirs ordered him to do so.
                Both the ''Baralong' case and the '' Torbay'' case involving those errant Marines in both cases was a breach of Article 11 of the Hague Convention governing the treatment of survivors of naval actions in war -especially those defenceless in the water.
                I recite these cases not to blacken the British Royal Marine Corps but because I abhor cover ups that refuse to acknowledge that sometimes we Brits armed forces have not always acted nobly.
                See your point Tt,I'm not closing my eyes to the fact that there are black sheep in every family and then I think, they were carrying out an order and did those victims come under the heading of 'Prisoners' at the time or survivors? If they were not technically prisoners was it any worse than men carrying out the order,'Take no prisoners'? For that order was carried out during the 2nd WW much more often than many people realise, by all sides, and it often included wounded,the proviso being that they had not been officially taken prisoner!! I am not making excuses for the men in the event that you mention but there is a point there,don't you think? lcm1
                'By Horse by Tram'.


                I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Correction. Lastmutiny in the RN was Hms Iveston in 1970. Although in my day five drunk matelots Singing outside the wardroom was called Friday night.
                  "Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by flash View Post
                    Perhaps they witnessed the German air force firing on HMS Kashmir survivors in the water?
                    Who in turn perhaps witnessed the RN rout of many German ad-hoc troop transport vessels.
                    By the way what exactly is the Royal Marine "corp"?
                    Sounds like a cross between our cross pond cousins and ourselves.
                    Don't fully understand you Tony, you are flying the union flag and you need an explanation on the Royals ?? Shame on you sir!!
                    'By Horse by Tram'.


                    I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                    " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Perhaps I'm wrong 1cm1 but aren't our Royal Marines still called Royal Marines?
                      Are they now called the Royal Marine Corp?
                      Royal Marine + Marine Corp(USA) = Royal Marine Corp.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Toomtabard View Post
                        In May 1941 again acting under orders from the Captain of the British submarine ''HMS Torbay'' another product of the Edinburgh education system albeit the highly socially exclusive and expensive Edinburgh Academy-Lt-Commander Anthony Meirs V.C. ordered seven German 'Gebirge'' mountain troops captured after ''Torbay'' had sunk the caique they had been intercepted in in the' Med'' sea and had a Royal Marine Corporal shoot all these defenceless Germans in the rubber boat.
                        To his credit one Royal Marine-a Corporal Sherwood- refused absolutely to take part in any illegal action against the defenceless Germans and did not do so.
                        Also, the ''Jimmy the One'' on ''Torbay refused to shoot the hapless Germans when Meirs ordered him to do so.
                        Both the ''Baralong' case and the '' Torbay'' case involving those errant Marines in both cases was a breach of Article 11 of the Hague Convention governing the treatment of survivors of naval actions in war -especially those defenceless in the water.
                        I recite these cases not to blacken the British Royal Marine Corps but because I abhor cover ups that refuse to acknowledge that sometimes we Brits armed forces have not always acted nobly.
                        The events you're telling about happened on 9 July, not in May 1941, during HMS Torbay's 3rd Mediterranean War Patrol:
                        Around 0220 hours HMS Torbay (Lt.Cdr. A.C.C. Miers, RN) sank the German sailing vessels L V and L VI, with gunfire and scuttling charges about 10 nautical miles north of Antikythera, Greece.

                        At 0220 hours, while Torbay was in position 100? Cape Malea 24 nautical miles a caique was seen on the horizon in very good visibility. Torbay turned to close. While doing so three more caiques were seen about 2 nautical miles apart all steering the same course. As Torbay had not much ammo left for the deck gun it was decided that they were to be stopped with one well aimed round of the deck gun, then clear the decks with the Lewis gun and then scuttle them with demolition charges.

                        At 0320 hours, while in position 126? Cape Malea 22 nautical miles, fire was opened on the first caique with the Lewis gun and the 4" gun. Such a blazing fire was started in the caique that it was not possible to go alongside. Lewis gunfire was continued with until all the occupants were either killed or forced to abandon ship. The caique of about 100 tons was left to burn (This must have been L VI)

                        At 0327 hours Torbay set course to engage the 2nd caique. At 0357 hours fire was opened on the second caique. Most of the crew took to the water and those who remained on board made signals as if to surrender shouting 'captain is Greek'. The submarine came alongside and the caique was boarded. A German soldier tried to throw a grenade but he was shot before he could do so. The whole crew turned out to be Germans and they were forced to launch their rubber boat and jump into it. Another German was shot by Torbay's navigating officer when he tried to shoot this officer with a rifle from point blank range. The caique was of about 100 tons, was carrying troop, ammo and petrol. She had L V painted on her side. This caique was fitted with demolition charges. The German soldiers in the rubber boat were shot by the Lewis gun to prevent them from returning to their ship. At 0435 hours the demolition charges exploded and the caique was sunk.

                        Around 0530 hours HMS Torbay sank the German sailing vessel L XII with gunfire and scuttling charges about 10 nautical miles north of Anti-Kythera, Greece.

                        At 0445 hours a third sailing vessel was sighted, a large auxiliary schooner of about 300 tons making for Anti-Kythera. Torbay chased at full speed but as the target was making a good 10 knots it was not until 0530 that Torbay was close to the target. By that time it was daylight and boarding was out of the question.

                        At 0530 hours, while Torbay was in position 068? Pori Island 11.5 nautical miles, fire was opened. The schooner was filled with petrol and explosives and was quickly ablaze from stem to stern. Torbay dived soon after. This schooner was seen to sink at 0900 hours. The fourth caique escaped due to the arrival of an aircraft.
                        http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3498.html

                        From another source (sorry, this one is German, very interesting although - it contains (not full, of course) list of war crimes at sea during WWII)
                        if anyone knows German well:
                        9.7.1941
                        Mittelmeer / Ägäis
                        Das britische Unterseeboot Torbay versenkt auf seiner 3. Feindfahrt in der Ägäis eine ganze Reihe von Motorseglern, die 75 deutsche Soldaten zum Festland bringen sollen., mit Artillerie und Sprengpatronen ("battle against caiques"). Den deutschen Soldaten wird nicht erlaubt, das Boot zu verlassen. Am 9.7. bringt es wiederum einen der kleinen von Kreta aus nordwärts fahrenden deutschen Motorsegler auf. Ein Enterkommando durchsucht das Schiff und bringt anschließend die Sprengladung an. 7 deutschen Soldaten, die einer Gebirgsdivision auf Kreta angehören, gelingt es sich in ein Schlauchboot zu retten. Erbarmungslos gibt der U-Boot-Kommandant (LtCdr. Miers) daraufhin den Befehl, sie mit Maschinengewehr zu erschießen. Obwohl sich der Erste Wachoffizier und ein Seemann weigern, werden - wie auch im Kriegstagebuch vermerkt - die deutschen Schiffbrüchigen liquidiert. Zu einem Verfahren gegen LtCdr Miers wegen Verstoßes gegen das Völkerrecht kommt es nicht. (Paul Chapman, S. 59-67 / Tony Bridgeland, S. 91-102 / Seidler/ Zayas, S.180/181 - leider mit falschem Datum!).
                        here's google-translation:
                        A Royal Navy submarine sunk on its 3rd Torbay In the Aegean Sea patrol a number of motor-glider, which will bring 75 German soldiers to the mainland.,. Artillery and explosive cartridges ("battle against caiques") German soldiers are not allowed to leave the boat. At 9.7. does it turn on one of the small of Crete northward moving German sailer. A boarding party searched the ship and was later transported to the explosive charge. 7 German soldiers, who belong to a Mountain Division in Crete, he manages to escape in a dinghy. Unforgiven the U-boat commander (LtCdr. Miers) are then ordered to be shot with a machine gun. Although the first watch officer and a sailor refuse - as also noted in the War Diary - German castaways liquidated. To proceedings against LtCdr Miers for violating international law does not apply. (Paul Chapman, pp. 59-67 / Tony Bridgeland, pp. 91-102 / Seidler / Zayas, S.180/181 - unfortunately with the wrong date!).

                        The captain's name was Anthony Cecil Capel Miers - mentioned in despatches only by the time of event. His VC decoration took place a year later, 7 July 1942 (link).

                        I, for one, would like to express some doubt: I'm not sure that HM submarines included Royal Marines in their companies. May be I'm not right?
                        "Keep Calm. Use Less X's"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Toomtabard View Post
                          THe only American naval mutiny that I know of was the fictional ''Caine Mutiny'' a novel written by Herman Wouk and filmed in 1954 staring Humphrey Bogart as the seriously loopy ''Captain Queeg''
                          There was a planned mutiny aboard the USS Somers in 1842. One of the 3 hanged for the offense was the son of the Secretary of the Navy.
                          Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

                          "I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

                          What didn't kill us; didn't make us smarter.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                            Hi Tt,I know very little about the Mutiny and find it hard to imagine 'Bootnecks' taking part in a mutiny,in defence of the finest Corps in the World I can only say that they must have been very few!! O.K. call me one eyed but I think you would get the same reaction from anyone who has served in the Royal Corps. lcm1
                            It's out of the time frame but Royal Marines were a part of the Spithead Mutiny as well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thank you one and all for your informative replies

                              To the canny Geordie lad who questioned my use of Marine Corps-Way aye man! I was using the word Corps'' in the original Latin sense of being a body of men (Corpus =body in Latin.)
                              Also, I totally disagree with the poster who said that the Highland Division 's conduct at Salerno wasn't a ''mutiny''-Oh yes it was my friend! as many of these men were court-martialled subsequent to their mutiny-and some were punished although it was hushed up for the duration of the war to prevent Axis propaganda mongers from capitalising on it.
                              Thank you for the information on the American ship which mutinied in the 19th century.

                              Comment

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