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  • Dieppe

    Anyone seen the latest broadcast which amongst other things alleges the real target was a building housing various enigma mahines and data and getting that was the real reason.

    It seem to me that keeping our knowledge of the enigma secret from the Germans was of high importance otherwise they would change all their coding.

    Sending in a force to grab it was surely the best way of advertising that we had it thus causing the Germans to change everything which we didn't want done!!

    Anyone any thoughts?

  • #2
    IIRC that is a theory for the most part on the raid. And from what I remember that would have been to get the fourth 'wheel' to the enigma machine. Previously they were using 3 wheels for the machines. Seems to me a coastal invasion type assault would not have had as good a chance as a covert/night-time/commando/special forces surprise raid might have.
    SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

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    • #3
      http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...07#post2321307

      Guys,... We've already covered this a few days ago and the book covering the background is due out in 2013
      The Purist

      Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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      • #4
        Well... sorry we missed that. Can we talk about it some more?
        SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

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        • #5
          Originally posted by dgfred View Post
          Well... sorry we missed that. Can we talk about it some more?

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          • #6
            What would work better anyway? A pure commando assault from the air/glider or an amphibious one like was used. I don't really know the surrounding area if anything else was possible.
            SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

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            • #7
              Dastardly and devious...I know.

              Originally posted by dgfred View Post
              What would work better anyway? A pure commando assault from the air/glider or an amphibious one like was used. I don't really know the surrounding area if anything else was possible.
              Here's an idea.

              Insert a small team of SOE/SAS.
              Bomb the place "into the stone age", with a maximum effort (a la "Millenium") raid by the RAF.
              During the chaos of the immediate aftermath, the SAS team makes "the grab", plants demolition charges to cover their tracks, and gets the "f*ck out of Dodge".

              Saves thousands of my countrymen (and many from the other participating nations) and the Germans will be too confused to realize that it was a "targeted operation" against their code security. The demolition will be perceived as a delay fused aerial bomb and will obliterate any "evidence" (dead bodies) created by the team carrying out the mission.

              If they already knew where the team needed to go to "get the goods", then the only thing that might kybosh such an Op, is if the targeted building took an "unfortunate hit" during the bombing raid.

              Still? Worth a shot...IMO.
              A far better "plan" too; again...IMO.

              The French might not be too happy about it...but?

              "C'est la guerre, toujours la guerre..."
              48 trips 'round the sun on this sh*tball we call home...and still learning...
              __________________________________________________ __________________

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              • #8
                Originally posted by iron View Post

                The French might not be too happy about it...but?

                "C'est la guerre, toujours la guerre..."

                And pray tell why the "French wouldn't be too happy about it"...as opposed to what historically happened?

                French forces participated in the real raid, and some lost their lives. Furthermore, 2 of the 5 eventual SAS groups were French themselves (3rd & 4th).

                Not sure what you're getting on about.
                You'll live, only the best get killed.

                -General Charles de Gaulle

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by iron View Post
                  Here's an idea.

                  Insert a small team of SOE/SAS.
                  Bomb the place "into the stone age", with a maximum effort (a la "Millenium") raid by the RAF.
                  During the chaos of the immediate aftermath, the SAS team makes "the grab", plants demolition charges to cover their tracks, and gets the "f*ck out of Dodge".

                  Saves thousands of my countrymen (and many from the other participating nations) and the Germans will be too confused to realize that it was a "targeted operation" against their code security. The demolition will be perceived as a delay fused aerial bomb and will obliterate any "evidence" (dead bodies) created by the team carrying out the mission.
                  Not really convinced.

                  We've got a good lock at where the interesting stuff we want is located. We wallop the place to kingdom come, smashing it up beyond recognition, and then we attempt to insert some guys with surgical-looking precision, secure in our conviction that bombing the hell out of the place in no ways might have fouled up the precise location, even if we've made said location non-existant? Saturation bombing and precision insertion just don't look to me like they would mix all that well.

                  Otherwise we bomb everything else to smithereens, but keep a safe cordon around our real objective, something that just might make any German not getting immediately bombed (like the guys at the facility) somewhat suspscious?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...07#post2321307

                    Guys,... We've already covered this a few days ago and the book covering the background is due out in 2013
                    Hi TP,I have a very good book on Dieppe called the 'Shame and the Glory' which is very good,a bit long in the tooth so could be a little dated now but still excellent reading. lcm 1.
                    'By Horse by Tram'.


                    I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                    " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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                    • #11
                      There is no relationship between the Dieppe raid and Enigma ………..

                      Polish Secret Service could read German Enigma (Army) signals 1938-39 they had plans and Enigma wheels, after war started as the poles moved East the information found its way into France and then England

                      From 1941Bletchley Park code-breakers managed to read most German (Army and Air Force used a 4 wheel Enigma the Navy used 5 wheels) codes

                      The most important Naval codes from 1942/3
                      Most of the Enigma information Code books and equipment (Naval) came from captured German ships (weather trawlers) and U-Boats (U-33 U-110 U-559 U-205 U-505)


                      “Attack with aggression, but always have a plan of retreat”

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by peteratwar View Post
                        Anyone seen the latest broadcast which amongst other things alleges the real target was a building housing various enigma mahines and data and getting that was the real reason.

                        It seem to me that keeping our knowledge of the enigma secret from the Germans was of high importance otherwise they would change all their coding.

                        Sending in a force to grab it was surely the best way of advertising that we had it thus causing the Germans to change everything which we didn't want done!!

                        Anyone any thoughts?
                        This woulkdn't have been a main objective of OP JUBILEE . There were several other special operations , at Green Beach at PUYS a Canadian regiment the South Saskatchewan detailed a squad to escort a radar specialist, a RAF man to look at a radar station and pick up what ever bits of gear they copuld, they pulled it off. At the other side of the operation at POURVILLE a RM Commando took out an fixed artillery position.
                        Why did the main attack fail ? The tanks landed on a neach that was mainly stones that fouled the tracks and stranded them . The Germans had fortified the seawall and all approach roads.
                        So why did Gen Roberts Canadian CinC comit his reserve ? A misread radio message. The message was some members of Essex Scottish had got into town. It got read as Essex Scottish in town. This led to the landing of les Fusilers de Montreal .This led to more more casualties.
                        Of course this led to a better recon in Normandy and sandy beaches .
                        Casualties a lot less.

                        "To all who serve , have or will serve , Thank You"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dgfred View Post
                          What would work better anyway? A pure commando assault from the air/glider or an amphibious one like was used. I don't really know the surrounding area if anything else was possible.
                          I'm afraid whenever I see anything regarding Dieppe I live the time again.A more foolhardy,ridiculous pie in the sky plan is hard to imagine.Of course the men who dreamed it up did not have to do it did they! lcm1
                          'By Horse by Tram'.


                          I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                          " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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                          • #14
                            Thanks for your input lcm1 .
                            SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dgfred View Post
                              Thanks for your input lcm1 .
                              'By Horse by Tram'.


                              I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                              " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                              Comment

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