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1944 attack on USA thwarted?

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  • #16
    Thanks Johnny Reb, US forces had it tough on the beaches.
    My amatuer websites (still works in progress)

    http://sites.google.com/site/junkersju390/home

    http://sites.google.com/site/heinkel277/

    https://sites.google.com/site/naziabomb/

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Simon_G View Post
      Thanks Johnny Reb, US forces had it tough on the beaches.
      He is British, and no problem! Glad to help!
      In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes
      - Benjamin Franklin, U.S. statesman, author, and scientist

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by D1J1 View Post
        It all sounds implausible, but a crew error is at least possible. An attack by a single plane is not.

        I am certain the story must have been of benefit for some individuals in that community who deal with tourists though.

        Regards,
        Dennis
        Given that a Junkers long range bomber came within 12 miles of the New York coast in 1944 and took pictures, I don't find this implausable at all.
        "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
          Given that a Junkers long range bomber came within 12 miles of the New York coast in 1944 and took pictures, I don't find this implausable at all.
          You and Gixxer86 seem to be in agreement that I am in error. But please note that I am addressing the orignial heading of this being an attack. Even one-nut never dreamed that a single sortie would be sufficient to cause a desired action by an enemy.

          A mission by one plane is not going to scare the US into surrender or anything remotely close. If an attack actually happened the most likely result would be similar to the public response after Pearl Harbor.

          The ratzis do not have a nuclear weapon to deliver. Nor is the US on the verge of defeat needing only a little more convincing to recognize their reality. That makes a comparison to the Enola Gay invalid.

          Regards,
          Dennis
          If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

          Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by NagaSadow View Post
            IIRC there were some Kriegsmarine/Luftwaffe robotic weather stations on Newfoundland
            Not in 1944 there weren't.

            This whole thing sounds like a case of mistaken recollection by the witnesses. I severely doubt that the Germans would have been flying a mission of some sort to the US at that point. Fuel for aircraft was scarce at best and just the fuel to fly one large aircraft like a Ju 390 or Bv 222 would have consumed the equivalent of a squardon of Me 109 flying a mission.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by D1J1 View Post
              You and Gixxer86 seem to be in agreement that I am in error. But please note that I am addressing the orignial heading of this being an attack. Even one-nut never dreamed that a single sortie would be sufficient to cause a desired action by an enemy.

              A mission by one plane is not going to scare the US into surrender or anything remotely close. If an attack actually happened the most likely result would be similar to the public response after Pearl Harbor.

              The ratzis do not have a nuclear weapon to deliver. Nor is the US on the verge of defeat needing only a little more convincing to recognize their reality. That makes a comparison to the Enola Gay invalid.

              Regards,
              Dennis
              Maybe not, but if the Germans were able to cross the Atlantic and drop bombs on the US, before returning safely to Europe, imagine the massive propaganda victory it would be for them? Goebbels would crow like a rooster at the news. We had no way of knowing this wasn't the first of many such air attacks. Therefore, the US would probably divert or keep a number of fighter squadrons state side, so as to not allow another German air attack upon our home soil.
              "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Simon_G View Post
                Granted Germany had many huge problems at the time, but Hitler also had a fixation for attacking New York to draw US resources away from the battle in Europe.

                For example Doenitz had huge problems in the U-boat war in the Atlantic from Black May 1943. The Nazi solution to this issue was to send Type IXC and IXD2 U-boats far out to attack shipping in the Indian Ocean in the hope of drawing US anti-submarine assets away from the Atlantic.

                Hitler applied much the same rationale that a significant attack on US soil would draw US attention away from Europe. For the same reasons that you think it improbable, I could equally argue that a desperate game changing attack could have been highly probable in 1944.


                BTW nice to see you use the badge for British Combined Operations. My father wore that with pride embroidered with gold wire into his blazer when I was a kid. he was at Arromanches on D-Day... cheers
                Hi Simon, Ah,you've got some 'Limey' blood in you so you can't be all bad!! Yes it is a badge to be proud of and no mistake, I have recently sown one on my RM vets bomber jacket.(Not many of us left now) I must confess regarding the basis of the original subject we were talking about and remembering what our old mate Adolf was like it could have been one of his brainstorms to do something like that even at that late stage of the war, Cheers, lcm1 (Ken) P.S. I used the term 'Limey' because I suspect you possibly have ties in the USA?
                Last edited by lcm1; 06 Apr 12, 21:14.
                'By Horse by Tram'.


                I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by D1J1 View Post
                  You and Gixxer86 seem to be in agreement that I am in error. But please note that I am addressing the orignial heading of this being an attack. Even one-nut never dreamed that a single sortie would be sufficient to cause a desired action by an enemy.
                  Well Dennis this "nut" in question plunged the whole world into a war that killed 60 million people and you're asking me to believe this guy had a sense of proportion?

                  A mission by one plane is not going to scare the US into surrender or anything remotely close. If an attack actually happened the most likely result would be similar to the public response after Pearl Harbor.
                  If the weapon was nuclear then it would have been a game changer, wouldn't you have to agree?

                  It took one aircraft with one bomb to flatten Hiroshima.

                  Let me remind you Dennis of Goering's map of Manhattan and the blast radius for a nuclear weapon prepared in 1943:



                  The ratzis do not have a nuclear weapon to deliver.
                  Says you... but what if they did?

                  However in a deciphered PURPLE diplomatic signal from Japan's embassy in Stockholm to Tokyo dated 12 December 1944 the Japanese revealed Hitler had already developed nuclear weapons. The signal was declassified in 1978 and this is the full text of that message:

                  [Stockholm to Tokyo, No.232.9 December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, declassified October 1, 1978]

                  Part 1

                  This bomb is revolutionary in its results, and will completely upset all ordinary precepts of warfare hitherto established. I am sending you, in one group, all those reports on what is called the atom-splitting bomb. It is a fact that in June of 1943, the German Army tried out an utterly new type of weapon against the Russians at a location 150 kilometers southeast of Kursk. Although it was the entire 19th Infantry Regiment of the Russians which was thus attacked, only a few bombs (each round up to 5 kilograms) sufficed to utterly wipe them out to the last man.

                  Part 2.

                  The following is according to a statement by Lieutenant-Colonel UE [ISHIWARA] KENJI, advisor to the attaché in Hungary and formerly in this country, who by chance saw the actual scene immediately after the above took place:

                  "All the men and the horses the explosion of the shells were
                  charred black and even their ammunition had all been detonated."

                  Moreover, it is a fact that the same type of war material was tried out in the Crimea, too. At that time the Russians claimed that this was poison-gas, and protested that if Germany were ever again to use it, Russia, too, would use poison-gas.

                  Part 3.

                  There is also the fact that recently in London - in the period between October and the 15th of November - the loss of life and the damage to business buildings through fires of unknown origin was great. It is clear, judging especially by the articles about a new weapon of this type, which have appeared from time to time recently in British and American magazines - that even our enemy has already begun to study this type. To generalize on the basis of all these reports: I am convinced that the most important technical advance in the present great war is in the realization of the atom-splitting bomb. Therefore, the central authorities are planning, through research on this type of weapon, to speed up the matter of rendering the weapon practical. And for my part, I am convinced of the necessity for taking urgent steps to effect this end.

                  Part 4.

                  The following are the facts I have learned regarding its technical data:

                  Recently the British authorities warned their people of the possibility that they might undergo attacks by German atom-splitting bombs. The American military authorities have likewise warned that the American east coast might be the area chosen for a blind attack by some sort of flying bomb. It was called the German V-3. To be specific, this device is based on the principle of the explosion of the nuclei of the atoms in heavy hydrogen derived from heavy water. (Germany has a large plant in the vicinity of Rjukan, Norway, which has from time to time been bombed by English planes.). Naturally, there have been plenty of examples even before this of successful attempts at smashing individual atoms. However, as far as the demonstration of any practical results is concerned, they seem not to have been able to split large numbers of atoms in a single group. That is, they require for the splitting of each single atom a force that will disintegrate the electron orbit.

                  Part 5.

                  as far as the demonstration of any practical results is concerned, they seem not to have been able to split large numbers of atoms in a single group. That is, they require for the splitting of each single atom a force that will disintegrate the electron orbit. On the other hand, the stuff that the Germans are using has, apparently, a very much greater specific gravity than anything heretofore used. In this connection, allusions have been made to SIRIUS and stars of the "White Dwarf" group. (Their specific gravity is 1 thousand, and the weight of one cubic inch is 1 ton.) In general, atoms cannot be compressed into the nuclear density. However, the terrific pressures and extremes of temperature in the "White Dwarfs" cause the bursting of the atoms; and

                  Part 6.

                  There are, moreover, radiations from the exterior of these stars composed of what is left of the atoms which are only the nuclei, very small in volume. According to the English newspaper accounts, the German atom- splitting device is the NEUMAN disintegrator. Enormous energy is directed into the central part of the atom and this generates at atomic pressure of several tons of thousands of tons (sic) per square inch. This device can split the relatively unstable atoms of such elements as uranium. Moreover, it brings into being a store of explosive atomic energy. A-GENSHI HAKAI DAN. That is, a bomb deriving its force from the release of atomic energy.


                  Nor is the US on the verge of defeat needing only a little more convincing to recognize their reality.
                  However a nuclear (or even chemical) attack on mainland USA would seriously re-prioritise American thinking about deployment of fighter forces.

                  That makes a comparison to the Enola Gay invalid.
                  Not if there really was a nuclear weapon on the aircraft which crashed 2.5 miles from Owl's Point and wouldn't it be fascinating if that weapon is still lying on the seabed?


                  http://www.petermann-heiko.de/index....id=102&lang=de
                  My amatuer websites (still works in progress)

                  http://sites.google.com/site/junkersju390/home

                  http://sites.google.com/site/heinkel277/

                  https://sites.google.com/site/naziabomb/

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                    Hi Simon, Ah,you've got some 'Limey' blood in you so you can't be all bad!! Yes it is a badge to be proud of and no mistake, I have recently sown one on my RM vets bomber jacket.(Not many of us left now) I must confess regarding the basis of the original subject we were talking about and remembering what our old mate Adolf was like it could have been one of his brainstorms to do something like that even at that late stage of the war, Cheers, lcm1 (Ken) P.S. I used the term 'Limey' because I suspect you possibly have ties in the USA?
                    I am very proud of all your generation and especially those who went ashore at Normandy. Yours were a whole generation of heroes and did what had to be done.

                    My father was at Westkapelle later in 44 where the Canadians got beaten up
                    My amatuer websites (still works in progress)

                    http://sites.google.com/site/junkersju390/home

                    http://sites.google.com/site/heinkel277/

                    https://sites.google.com/site/naziabomb/

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      Not in 1944 there weren't.

                      This whole thing sounds like a case of mistaken recollection by the witnesses. I severely doubt that the Germans would have been flying a mission of some sort to the US at that point. Fuel for aircraft was scarce at best and just the fuel to fly one large aircraft like a Ju 390 or Bv 222 would have consumed the equivalent of a squardon of Me 109 flying a mission.
                      The severity of Germany's aviation fuel situation did not come until October 1944 as the loss of Romanian oil fields and the effect of Allied bombing on synthetic oil plants in Germany co-incided.

                      There were still many long range Ju-290 & Bv222 missions being flown in early 1945 so the point is not valid.
                      My amatuer websites (still works in progress)

                      http://sites.google.com/site/junkersju390/home

                      http://sites.google.com/site/heinkel277/

                      https://sites.google.com/site/naziabomb/

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        By Septmeber 1944. German units had been pushed back to Hollland. If this happened while Germany still occupied France. OK Not sure how it could get there otherwise...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Simon,I understand what you are saying, but from the perspective you are taking it belongs in Alternative Timelines as all of it is "what if" and speculation. That was not the thrust of your OP. I'm only addressing the realities. If the ratzis did have a nuclear weapon, do you really think the east coast of the US rather than say Moscow or London would have been the primary target? Really??

                          John, ditto on the "what if." You make sense, but the perspective from the OP is skewed away from reality. Yes forces would have been diverted, but most likely from the production runs here and recent inductees, not from the fronts. The fighter squadrons you mention could easily have been pilots receiving their final training before being shipped to theatre.

                          Regards,
                          Dennis
                          Last edited by D1J1; 07 Apr 12, 13:37.
                          If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

                          Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Simon_G View Post
                            I am very proud of all your generation and especially those who went ashore at Normandy. Yours were a whole generation of heroes and did what had to be done.

                            My father was at Westkapelle later in 44 where the Canadians got beaten up
                            Yes the poor old Canadians had a rough time of it didn't they what with that and Dieppe.My cousin Peggy was engaged to a Princess Pat: he never came back from Dieppe. We always got on well with the Canadians, hundreds of them stationed around my home town of Brighton,they were very popular with the townsfolk in general. lcm1
                            'By Horse by Tram'.


                            I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                            " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by D1J1 View Post
                              Simon,I understand what you are saying, but from the perspective you are taking it belongs in Alternative Timelines as all of it is "what if" and speculation. That was not the thrust of your OP. I'm only addressing the realities. If the ratzis did have a nuclear weapon, do you really think the east coast of the US rather than say Moscow or London would have been the primary target? Really??

                              John, ditto on the "what if." You make sense, but the perspective from the OP is skewed away from reality. Yes forces would have been diverted, but most likely from the production runs here and recent inductees, not from the fronts. The fighter squadrons you mention could easily have been pilots receiving their final training before being shipped to theatre.

                              Regards,
                              Dennis

                              Hi Dennis, I appreciate you having a serious dialogue with me even if we disagree.

                              I don't think this is for alternate timelines at all. A real aircraft was downed there. Real bodies were pulled from the water in Luftwaffe uniforms. Many years later Ruben P Whittemore dived the wreck which is still there and recovered a constructor's RMZ plate indicating the aircraft was a Junkers.

                              I personally have no idea what an RMZ tag is. Whittemore lives in Burlington Vermont. The incident seems from all accounts genuine,

                              You ask me what i seriously believe. Airspace over the UK was too closely guarded in September 1944 and the only aircraft left capable of penetrating UK airspace were the Arado 243 (by then forced to operate mostly from Norway) and the Do217P which were a handful of prototypes.

                              Hitler was personally fixated with attacking New York so the likelihood of an attack was not so far fetched as you claim.

                              The OSS Report from Switzerland of November 1944 indicates Hitler had been preparing a massed artillery attack against the Soviets in October 1944 with Tabun-B to co-inside with a nuclear and nerve gas attack against the UK.

                              However Hitler was also threatened by USA through Lisbon in July 1944 with an American nuclear attack on Dresden unless Hitler sued for peace within 6 weeks. In August 1944 Churchill threatened a massive anthrax attack against Germany unless Hitler abandoned nuclear weapons.

                              I would suggest this crash represents Hitler's last roll of the dice before he accepted the need to try and negotiate his way out with the Western Allies.

                              That is my serious and honest reply.
                              My amatuer websites (still works in progress)

                              http://sites.google.com/site/junkersju390/home

                              http://sites.google.com/site/heinkel277/

                              https://sites.google.com/site/naziabomb/

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Simon_G View Post
                                Indeed it did but the fates of all thirteen Bv222 ever built is accounted for

                                V1 sank Piraeus harbour following collision Feb 42
                                V2 scuttled between Fagervika and Monk's island by British 1945
                                V3 destroyed Bisscarose air raid 20 June 1943
                                V4 assigned to LTS 222 for Africa flights, scuttled by crew at Travemünde
                                V5 destroyed Bisscarose air raid 20 June 1943
                                V6 was shot down 21 Aug 1942 on Tripoli route by Beaufighter
                                V7 scuttled by crew at Travemünde
                                V8 shot down Mediterranean on Tripoli route 10 December 1942.

                                C09 straffed by Typhoon 24 April 1945 at Seedorf
                                C10 shot down SW Biscarosse night of 8 February 1944 by Mosquito
                                C11 USN captured at Sørreisa, Norway
                                C12 British captured at Sørreisa, Norway
                                C13 USN captured at Sørreisa, Norway

                                Either one or both C11 aircraft and C13 aircraft had multiple engine failures in US hands, perhaps due to deliberate sabotage and at least one was destroyed by gunfire from a US destroyer to sink it.

                                Nor did the camouflage patterns of the Bv222 at that stage of the war match the sightings by locals from Rockport community. Incidentally the local community has never made a dime from these claims as they have been kept secret and i have checked with the archivist of a local newspaper that they have no awareness of this incident.

                                C12 was taken on charge by the RAF and flown to England. This is how it's arctic camouflage looked in 1945:



                                This aircraft is C11 captured in Norway 1945, not in black and green camouflage at all.



                                and this in colour:



                                However this image of Alles Kaput in 1945 (probably France) does depict the striking Black and Green camouflage of KG200 late in the war.



                                Thus the witness accounts match known characteristics for the ju-290/390 aircraft operated for special KG200 missions late in the war. Witnesses were specific that it was a six engined aircraft. The uniform of one drowned airman was that of a Luftwaffe captain.

                                The witnesses were first told it was the wreck of a German submarine however many had actually seen for themselves the wreckage of a six engined aircraft and knew it was not a U-boat.

                                FBI and Secret Service then abandoned the pretence of calling it a sunken u-boat and warned witnesses simply never to discuss it.
                                So you're telling me it wasn't an aircraft that definitely existed, but may've been one on which the jury's still out.

                                What does that say about your logic ?

                                BTW, there were two colour schemes associated with large military aircraft, the dark green/black green ( a deep green which looks black from a distance) was probably more common than the dark green/light grey scheme.
                                Indyref2 - still, "Yes."

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