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RKKA capability in 1941

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Metryll View Post
    From Panzer Leader, Guderian's memories

    "On October 10 th [...] The next few weeks were dominated by mud" p 237

    "Army Group Centre's attack was also held up bt the weather." p 240

    "On October 18th [...]To the north of Second Panzer Army the 19th Panzer Division occupied Maloyaroslavets." p 240

    "This was not the month of May and we were not fighting in France!" p 247 when Guderian received Gorki as objective.

    "By October 30th the LIII Army Corps [...] During this march it had suffered much from the prevailing mud and had been unable to take all its motorised vehicles , in particular its heavy artillery, with it." p 245

    Some samples of Guderians quotes regading weather effect on operation that affect not only front units but also logistic (hence the lack of "fuel ammo troops cigarettes".)
    You see the battle in his general aspect, you should look it day by day.
    While Guderian is stooped by mud, at the same time the 1rst PZD (viazma success) take kalinin. Guderian started Typhoon under supplied, so any grain of salt stoped him : fuel already at Orel, russians remnants here and there (briansk failure), a bunch of t 34 coming from the Stalingrad area ambushing germans behind a river, the roads broken by armor, the trucks "drinkin" part of the fuel on the way back to the front, cars and trucks coming from western europe and totaly worned.
    The first success of Typhoon are coming from many factors (...), one of them is that the Russians didn't expected any advance towards Moscow : they protected Leningrad and the south. When Guderian shifted north, he took Orel easely.

    Iam not saying that mud didn't affected germans. It did. But germans problems were far above the mud. Already worned and over extended, they should have understood the situation end october. Waiting the cold for better roads was a mirage and "self-suggestion" not to see the truth.
    At the end they even called and summoned the "Will". Far from the General Staff professionalism...

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by ljadw View Post
      mostly(or always?) when a discusson is started about the RKKA,the result,after a few pages,is that people are discussing about ....the Wehrmacht (as now and here :the impact of the weather on Typhoon).Why is this ? Bias? ...
      German had the initiative, its quite logical to chek there about some of reasons of Red Army regaining it. It would make no sense to argue about Red Army sucess in late 1941 without knowing what happened on the other side.

      Well noticed, ljadw! Some people are much more likely to jump on their hobby-horses no matter what the discussion is about. Getting back to the old topic, it's not just the mythical "inaccessibility" of the archives (how did Glantz and others access them?), it's the willingness to preserve a convenient status quo for the pro-German party. The Russian researchers are to blame for it too -they are locked in their own bubble and most of them don't read English, not speaking of participating in history forums like this. Heck, even when you find those who read and participate - have you ever seen Amvas or Andrey peep out of their little pen of RKKA forum? They could contribute a lot, but they don't.
      So everyone that check about facts has to discard them because you labeled them as pro-German. Is a pro-Russian only better because you prefer it ? Have we to refer to East Front as The Great Patriotic War only because pro-Russian view simply erase West and Pacific ? (And I've a quite clear remembering to have learnt one or two things about Pacific war to Andrey )

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      • #63
        Originally posted by grosnain View Post
        You see the battle in his general aspect, you should look it day by day.
        While Guderian is stooped by mud, at the same time the 1rst PZD (viazma success) take kalinin. Guderian started Typhoon under supplied, so any grain of salt stoped him : fuel already at Orel, russians remnants here and there (briansk failure), a bunch of t 34 coming from the Stalingrad area ambushing germans behind a river, the roads broken by armor, the trucks "drinkin" part of the fuel on the way back to the front, cars and trucks coming from western europe and totaly worned.
        The first success of Typhoon are coming from many factors (...), one of them is that the Russians didn't expected any advance towards Moscow : they protected Leningrad and the south. When Guderian shifted north, he took Orel easely.

        Iam not saying that mud didn't affected germans. It did. But germans problems were far above the mud. Already worned and over extended, they should have understood the situation end october. Waiting the cold for better roads was a mirage and "self-suggestion" not to see the truth.
        At the end they even called and summoned the "Will". Far from the General Staff professionalism...
        My point is that mud and winter hampered German above existing conditions. For an unknow reason, posters here want to attach weather effect only to front line units. It dont, all the logistical net is too hampered. With summer, early autumn condition, times would have been quite difficult for Russians. Have a look on a Typhoon map between October 1st and December 5th and note how much terrain German were able to cross with bad supply. Can one argue that advance would have been the same with a good one ? I dont

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Metryll View Post
          So everyone that check about facts has to discard them because you labeled them as pro-German.

          What a nice strawman you've just made. Which facts and labels are you speaking about now? We get posters every now and then who treat German memoirs as a Bible and the conventional Western view of the war, originally nearly exclusively based upon them, started changing only very recently. A lot of facts and events have been reinterpreted thanks to people like Glantz, and you aren't happy about this


          Is a pro-Russian only better because you prefer it ?
          What about a balanced approach like the one Glantz, Overy and Jones take? Can't you fathom the possibility?

          Have we to refer to East Front as The Great Patriotic War only because pro-Russian view simply erase West and Pacific ?
          Huh, what?

          (And I've a quite clear remembering to have learnt one or two things about Pacific war to Andrey )
          Really? Cool, I don't remember a single post he's ever made outside the RKKA (and maybe Russia forum)
          www.histours.ru

          Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Metryll View Post
            On November 17, Guderian wrote :

            "We are only nearing our final objective step by step in this icy cold and all the troops suffering from the appaling supply situation. The difficulties of supplying by raimroads are constantly increasing -that is the main cause of our shortages, since without fuel the trucks cant move".

            Note that Guderian talk only of weather, not of any other cause such as partisans or Russian actvities.

            Actually Guderian and his subbordinates complained about weather as soon than October. In no way it's a post action justification.

            In other words weather had an impact on German operationnal capabilities
            The writings of the field commanders must be taken with a pinch of salt.

            First of all, during Operation Typhoon, Guderian's 2nd Panzer Armee ran out of fuel on October 3rd, 4 days before the first snowfall of the season. Prior to that things were pretty dry, yet Guderian still ran out of fuel and ammo in less than 1 week of combat operations.

            Secondly, the rasputitza period of October 7th-Nobember 15th did not immobile the Germans. This is a myth. XIII Armeekorps and XII Armeekorps -which were infantry- both advanced 70-80km in 5 days, the 1st Panzer Division advanced 75km in the same time and captured Kalinin, threatening to split the Northwestern and Western Fronts. By October 24th Heeres Gruppe Mitte had 5 Panzer Divisions within 100km of Moscow. By October 28th Kampfgruppe Eberbach had reached Tula, it advanced 120km in one week to do so.

            The impact of the weather on Operation Typhoon has been greatly overestimated, and the theory that it was the decisive factor in it's failure has already been disproved as a myth.

            I suggest you read Moscow 1941: Hitler's first defeat, by Robert Forczyk. Pages 90-92 will explain the weather factor and why Typhoon failed. I may or may not have a pdf that you can have.

            Originally posted by Metryll View Post
            Remove mud and snow, then increasing supply situation and I see no reasons for Germans to not continue their offensive. Summer 1942 show this quite clearly I'd say
            If you're asserting that if the weather did not exist, Germany could have won in 1941, that's debatable.
            A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Metryll View Post
              I'm not arguing that 1941 Red Army won all combats but that they did not lost all of them. See the difference ?
              Ok, but they still lost most of them during 1941.

              Originally posted by Metryll View Post
              When Guderian met Bock on November 23rd and argued about, among other, "..., the lack of winter clothing, the breakdown of the supply system" in order to cancel offensive, what does this mean to you ?
              It means that the Russian rail network was inadequate for supplying ACG's advance.
              A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Metryll View Post
                On November 17, Guderian wrote :

                "We are only nearing our final objective step by step in this icy cold and all the troops suffering from the appaling supply situation. The difficulties of supplying by raimroads are constantly increasing -that is the main cause of our shortages, since without fuel the trucks cant move".

                Note that Guderian talk only of weather, not of any other cause such as partisans or Russian actvities.

                Actually Guderian and his subbordinates complained about weather as soon than October. In no way it's a post action justification.

                In other words weather had an impact on German operational capabilities
                Weather had an impact on German operational capabilities, but the reason for that is that the Germans had not planned for it. Blame the Germans, not the weather!

                Remove mud and snow, then increasing supply situation and I see no reasons for Germans to not continue their offensive. Summer 1942 show this quite clearly I'd say
                It is not possible to remove mud and snow from a Russian winter. That is self-evident. It comes every year, and when it gets very cold, men and vehicles freeze. But oh, those poor Germans, you have to feel sorry for them. They got taken by surprise. It's a fairy tale.

                Bad planning and worse logistics doomed the Wehrmacht before Moscow. Guderian was complaining so bitterly because he, better than anyone, knew he was out of time as well as fuel. Blitzkrieg had failed. The rasputitsa and the cold merely sealed his fate.

                Regards
                Scott Fraser
                Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                A contentedly cantankerous old fart

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
                  Bad planning and worse logistics doomed the Wehrmacht before Moscow. Guderian was complaining so bitterly because he, better than anyone, knew he was out of time as well as fuel. Blitzkrieg had failed. The rasputitsa and the cold merely sealed his fate.

                  Regards
                  Scott Fraser
                  Not sure I agree with that. Blitzkrieg was a huge success, Germany did not fail because of the weather or the Red Army it's self, they failed because the Russian network was inadequate and they were extremely optimistic with regards to logistical planning. Had ACG had just two more Eisenbahn regiments things could have been very different.
                  A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                    What a nice strawman you've just made. Which facts and labels are you speaking about now? We get posters every now and then who treat German memoirs as a Bible and the conventional Western view of the war, originally nearly exclusively based upon them, started changing only very recently. A lot of facts and events have been reinterpreted thanks to people like Glantz, and you aren't happy about this
                    In what Glantz change Guderian writing during the events ? FYI I'm neither pro-German or even anti-Russian, I'm primilary interested in US Armed force. So your rant about me is non sensical, Im' neutral.

                    What about a balanced approach like the one Glantz, Overy and Jones take? Can't you fathom the possibility?
                    Once again in what Glantz, Overy and Jones contradict Guderian on point I've posted ? You claim that my facts are incorrect but provide nothing to support your own position. So much about who produce strawman...

                    Huh, what?
                    You argue, wrongly, that my position is pro-German. I ask you in what a Russian view could be better. Still waiting the answer...

                    Really? Cool, I don't remember a single post he's ever made outside the RKKA (and maybe Russia forum)
                    Use search functions with Andrey as keywords, you'll find plenty of them

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
                      Weather had an impact on German operational capabilities, but the reason for that is that the Germans had not planned for it. Blame the Germans, not the weather!
                      Dont say otherwise. My point is that with good weather Russians situation would have been quite difficult. And so far no one has been able to counter this point. It's a thing to state, correctly, that German badly planned when they did not taken into account weather but it's another to support the idea that with proper supply they could not have done better than they did.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
                        Ok, but they still lost most of them during 1941.
                        And mainly due to high command errors (my starting point).

                        It means that the Russian rail network was inadequate for supplying ACG's advance.
                        Actually starting with October/November German could mainly rely only on railroad as they are relatively immune to weather unlike earth road.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Metryll View Post
                          And mainly due to high command errors (my starting point).
                          To blame it only on STAVKA would be nonsensical.

                          Originally posted by Metryll View Post
                          Actually starting with October/November German could mainly rely only on railroad as they are relatively immune to weather unlike earth road.
                          The weather had a MINIMAL impact on operations. It was all about rail capacity and how fast the Eisenbahn regiments could convert the gauge on the railroads.

                          I also see you ignored my main response to you.
                          A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
                            To blame it only on STAVKA would be nonsensical.



                            The weather had a MINIMAL impact on operations. It was all about rail capacity and how fast the Eisenbahn regiments could convert the gauge on the railroads.

                            I also see you ignored my main response to you.
                            Dest, have you read Mierzejewski's The Most Valuable Asset of the Reich yet?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by The Ibis View Post
                              Dest, have you read Mierzejewski's The Most Valuable Asset of the Reich yet?
                              Yet? Was I suppose to?

                              A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
                                Yet? Was I suppose to?

                                iron has mentioned it a few times. If you're interested in the rail aspects of Barbarossa, its the source.

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