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Was the German Army (Heer) really so superior?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Von Richter View Post
    I'm no fan of the nazi fanboys, they're all a bit creepy for my liking. But to belittle the German as a fighting man in a serious discussion, takes away from the sacrifices the likes of lcm1 and his mates made, to rid the world of that perticular cancer....

    To Von, lcm1 P.S. I now have in my possession official proof of several things that certain persons on this Forum disputed. I have not got the ability to publish this on the forum but I have received great personal satisfaction to have it on permanent record. Receipt of your email address and a copy is yours.
    Last edited by lcm1; 05 Feb 12, 02:45.
    'By Horse by Tram'.


    I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
    " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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    • #77
      Don't know about you, but to me that seems pretty significant both in terms of the size of forces involved and the level of importance.
      I have a feeling 3rd Kharkov will be discounted because of the relative independence of the SS during the operation.

      Oh, dear, looks like the US' invasion and enslavement of Western Europe has raised its ugly head again. Good thing none of the countriess involved had a democratic government at any point before 1945
      History is not tragedy; to understand historical reality, it is sometimes better to not know the end of the story.

      Pierre Vidal-Naquet

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Bluenose View Post
        "I have a feeling 3rd Kharkov will be discounted because of the relative independence of the SS during the operation."
        You might have a point there.
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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        • #79
          Originally posted by deterrumeversor View Post

          You better watch out LCM1....... Soon our armchair experts who were not there at the pointy end of it might start calling you a fanboi !!!

          Cheers,
          Deter
          No way mate, but I have MET them at the time you are all talking about 'face to face'!! lcm1
          'By Horse by Tram'.


          I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
          " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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          • #80
            To keep up wiv mi' new found serious vein. I've never, ever, been a supporter of lost causes...


            The long toll of the brave
            Is not lost in darkness
            Over the fruitful earth
            And athwart the seas
            Hath passed the light of noble deeds
            Unquenchable forever.

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            • #81
              I totally agree with post 64 by LCM 1:the Germans were tough fighters and dangerous in defense.But,LCM 1 never said that they were superior,and,the OP was :were they superior?
              The answer is definitively :NO.
              They lost the war,thus,they were not superior .This not means they were inferior,incapable.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                I totally agree with post 64 by LCM 1:the Germans were tough fighters and dangerous in defense.But,LCM 1 never said that they were superior,and,the OP was :were they superior?
                The answer is definitively :NO.
                They lost the war,thus,they were not superior .This not means they were inferior,incapable.
                I am an old Bootneck, and you never admit that any enemy is superior and it can go unsaid!! lcm1
                'By Horse by Tram'.


                I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
                  If we're talking about a single battle that was a decisive German victory I'd like to point out the Battle of Narva.
                  How come? Stopping an offensive which had already run out of steam at strong defensive positions prepared well beforehand is hardly a "decisive victory".
                  www.histours.ru

                  Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                    How come? Stopping an offensive which had already run out of steam at strong defensive positions prepared well beforehand is hardly a "decisive victory".
                    I am not in on this thread very much but surely to stop an offensive under whatever circumstances can still be labelled 'Decisive'? The mere act of stopping makes it decisive. lcm1
                    'By Horse by Tram'.


                    I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                    " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                      I am not in on this thread very much but surely to stop an offensive under whatever circumstances can still be labelled 'Decisive'? The mere act of stopping makes it decisive. lcm1
                      I think the point is an offensive (any offensive) has a limited range. Stopping the Soviet summer offensive at it's first objective is clearly a victory for the defender.
                      Stopping it 100 miles in your rear just as it runs out of steam is hardly the same thing.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                        I am not in on this thread very much but surely to stop an offensive under whatever circumstances can still be labelled 'Decisive'? The mere act of stopping makes it decisive. lcm1
                        There were lots of offensives which were stopped by either side during the war, however few to none of these battles are considered decisive. The outcome of a battle like this would be natural, the Red Army tried to break through "on the go", it didn't manage to as the defences had been prepared several months in advance. It took a few months to prepare the major offensive which broke the Narva and Tannenberg lines as the main thrust of the Red Army was concentrated at other fronts at that time.
                        www.histours.ru

                        Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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                        • #87
                          I chose :

                          1. Easily the best during the early 'Blitzkrieg' campaigns and remained at least competitive thereafter (until 1943)

                          -Uncompetitive 1944-1945.

                          2. The Heer enjoyed something of an edge in the early campaigns but their opponents caught up quickly (100%)


                          Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                          I totally agree with post 64 by LCM 1:the Germans were tough fighters and dangerous in defense.But,LCM 1 never said that they were superior,and,the OP was :were they superior?
                          The answer is definitively :NO.
                          They lost the war,thus,they were not superior .This not means they were inferior,incapable.
                          The only 'exceptional' thing I have seen, time and time again, is that outside of many failures of grand strategy, large portions of the Heer seemed to consistently be an efficient user of scarce resources on the ground. These divisions had a knack for maximizing defense with their minimal assets. And the troops in them seemed to have above-average motivation to fight (even in pointless situations).
                          Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                          Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                          Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                          Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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                          • #88
                            Hi CI
                            Originally posted by Cult Icon View Post
                            I chose :

                            1. Easily the best during the early 'Blitzkrieg' campaigns and remained at least competitive thereafter (until 1943)

                            -Uncompetitive 1944-1945.

                            2. The Heer enjoyed something of an edge in the early campaigns but their opponents caught up quickly (100%)




                            The only 'exceptional' thing I have seen, time and time again, is that outside of many failures of grand strategy, large portions of the Heer seemed to consistently be an efficient user of scarce resources on the ground. These divisions had a knack for maximizing defense with their minimal assets. And the troops in them seemed to have above-average motivation to fight (even in pointless situations).
                            Hi CI, you are right on the nail with your last quotes,it was only in the last final hours of the war when their whole world had collapsed around them and they were in stunned disbelief did they become easy to handle. lcm1
                            'By Horse by Tram'.


                            I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                            " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                              There were lots of offensives which were stopped by either side during the war, however few to none of these battles are considered decisive. The outcome of a battle like this would be natural, the Red Army tried to break through "on the go", it didn't manage to as the defences had been prepared several months in advance. It took a few months to prepare the major offensive which broke the Narva and Tannenberg lines as the main thrust of the Red Army was concentrated at other fronts at that time.
                              You obviously did not understand what I said,to stop ANYTHING in ANYWAY, never to have that particular thing start again, automatically makes the event decisive, lcm1
                              'By Horse by Tram'.


                              I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                              " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by m kenny View Post
                                I think the point is an offensive (any offensive) has a limited range. Stopping the Soviet summer offensive at it's first objective is clearly a victory for the defender.
                                Stopping it 100 miles in your rear just as it runs out of steam is hardly the same thing.
                                But even for that reason and for that reason alone the mere fact of it being bought to a close, the outcome has been decided and therefore becomes decisive. lcm1
                                'By Horse by Tram'.


                                I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                                " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                                Comment

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