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Was the German Army (Heer) really so superior?

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  • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
    I agree with 75% of your first comment BZ, just one flaw in your reasoning,yes we would have fought and in doing so there would have been no question of surrender,they would have had to actually BEAT US trample us down into the ground,decimate us!! This will possibly raise a smile from some at the apparent drama but I do know that is exactly how it was and would have been. lcm1
    I always liked this line from the Battle of Britain - especially the last bit - and I have no doubt it pretty close to the mark.

    "If you think we're going to gamble on Herr Hitler's guarantees, you're making a grave mistake. All those years in England seems to have left you none the wiser. We're not easily frightened. Also we know how hard it is for an army to cross the Channel. The last little Corporal who tried came a cropper. So don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall... and even then we won't listen."

    Bloody obstinate bunch, the Brits, and they seem to get more obstinate the further they are pushed into a corner.
    Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

    That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Rojik View Post
      I always liked this line from the Battle of Britain - especially the last bit - and I have no doubt it pretty close to the mark.

      "If you think we're going to gamble on Herr Hitler's guarantees, you're making a grave mistake. All those years in England seems to have left you none the wiser. We're not easily frightened. Also we know how hard it is for an army to cross the Channel. The last little Corporal who tried came a cropper. So don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall... and even then we won't listen."

      Bloody obstinate bunch, the Brits, and they seem to get more obstinate the further they are pushed into a corner.
      My bold! I thought the corporals had a strong brotherhood! But in this case maybe not! It certainly seems like the second one didn't learn from the first!

      Regards,
      Dennis
      If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

      Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
        Or like they did in Jersey and Guernsey ?
        The long toll of the brave
        Is not lost in darkness
        Over the fruitful earth
        And athwart the seas
        Hath passed the light of noble deeds
        Unquenchable forever.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bravo Zero View Post
          Agreed, it was the English channel that saved them. It was the land forces where Nazi Germany's real power was and i beleive had the Heer and SS made it across the channel in vast numbers, i believe surrendering would of been an option as a modern Britain would never of accepted the kind of casualties that Russia had endured and neither was the British populance and exausted BEF as well armed as the Red Army was. Most would of had to of fought with knives, petrol bombs, rifles and home made weapons that would of been no match for an Army and paramilitary force that had just defeated Poland, Norway, France and ect, so they would of had high morale for one thing.

          Still, Allied command certainly didn't help when it came to protecting France. The whole plan was doomed to fail right from the start because the troops had been placed in all the wrong positions. Hundreds of French aircraft had not even been used!
          Why did you leave out the last bit of my post and only used the bit hat is useful to you?
          I mean this bit:
          As for the Heer's overall superiority during Fall Gelb (case yellow). This is definitefly a myth.

          You seem to hint at the unfairness of the Heer having to deal with the greater odds, if they lose.
          A few facts about the German invasion of Holland, part of Fall Gelb.
          The Fallschirmjaeger were defeated by raw recruits when they tried to take the Dutch airfields.
          Neither did they succeed taking the Willemsbrug in Rotterdam
          The SS got stopped in it's tracks and could not take Kornwerder Sand Stelling and Steling Wons.
          The Dutch brought down some 700 German air transports, crippling the Heer's logistics that relied on this.
          The German Heer was struggling taking Holland within their time scales,
          so it was deemed necessary to bomb Holland into submission, starting with Rotterdam
          and putting out the ultimatum that Utrecht and Amsterdam would
          follow if the Dutch would not capitulate.
          Never mind the little fact that Holland was neutral in the first place and had not declared war on Germany before Whitsunday 10th May 1940 (the start of Fall Gelb).
          So in the case of Holland, the Heer came across the border like a thief in the night. More or less destroying most of Holland's limited air power using more
          planes than the Dutch air force and the KLM had put together.
          Then got upset because the Heer had trouble subduing the Dutch resistance and resorted to terror.
          No under scrutiny the Heer was not that superior in infantry tactics far from it even in 1940.

          Ed.
          Last edited by dutched; 11 Feb 12, 08:20.
          The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

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          • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
            I am not arguing over body counts in fact I am not arguing at all! If you read what I was replying to again you will see that I was making the point to his remark about bomb damage in France caused by the RAF,how could damage to some things that were French be avoided in an attack on their German occupiers?? In addition I have every right to refer to myself as an old fart (and often do) that does not give you or anybody else the right to do so and I have what I consider a fairly easy going nature unless I consider that I am being 'got at' as I believe a number of people on this forum will bare out. Sincerely, lcm1
            I didn't think so, but things are getting way bent out if shape. The question is whether the Wehrmacht dropped turds that did not stink, not how many turds they dropped or on whom.

            Regards
            Scott Fraser
            Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

            A contentedly cantankerous old fart

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
              You think that solely because you were not there or one of them. I am not trying to be smart with you Imperial but just saying the way it was. lcm1
              I didn't say the British wouldn't fight. After all, the French fought too from May 10 to June 25 didn't they? I meant that the loss of the main line of defense on which the nation's hopes rested would have caused a serious psychological blow.

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              • Originally posted by dutched View Post
                No under scrutiny the Heer was not that superior in infantry tactics far from it even in 1940.

                Ed.
                But they had still won and suffered far fewer casualties than what the Third Reich had expected. The Wehrmacht was also new to fighting in the earlier part of the war and also didn't have the heavier weapons such as the panthers, Tigers and ect. Blitzkreig had also never been used before, so the Nazis took a gamble and it paid off. To take on the Dutch, Belgians, French and the British and still come out on top is still remarkable whether they were superior or not.

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                • Afaics,Blitzkrieg is an old strategical concept,in 1940 moulded in new clothes.

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                  • Originally posted by Bravo Zero View Post
                    But they had still won and suffered far fewer casualties than what the Third Reich had expected. The Wehrmacht was also new to fighting in the earlier part of the war and also didn't have the heavier weapons such as the panthers, Tigers and ect. Blitzkreig had also never been used before, so the Nazis took a gamble and it paid off. To take on the Dutch, Belgians, French and the British and still come out on top is still remarkable whether they were superior or not.
                    The casualties were greater than expected, an operation like Seeloewe was
                    certainly no longer viable. This if an invasion of the UK was ever a realistic option. Yes the first move decidedly in favour of the Heer.

                    Ed.
                    The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
                      I didn't think so, but things are getting way bent out if shape. The question is whether the Wehrmacht dropped turds that did not stink, not how many turds they dropped or on whom.

                      Regards
                      Scott Fraser
                      Somehow I get the feeling that you are still hedging around my reply, sincerely, lcm1
                      'By Horse by Tram'.


                      I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                      " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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                      • Originally posted by Imperial View Post
                        I didn't say the British wouldn't fight. After all, the French fought too from May 10 to June 25 didn't they? I meant that the loss of the main line of defense on which the nation's hopes rested would have caused a serious psychological blow.
                        The differance being of course that the British would have fought, even if the outcome to it all had been written on the wall by Gods own finger, to the bitter,bloody, end!! lcm1
                        'By Horse by Tram'.


                        I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                        " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bravo Zero View Post
                          But they had still won and suffered far fewer casualties than what the Third Reich had expected. The Wehrmacht was also new to fighting in the earlier part of the war and also didn't have the heavier weapons such as the panthers, Tigers and ect. Blitzkreig had also never been used before, so the Nazis took a gamble and it paid off. To take on the Dutch, Belgians, French and the British and still come out on top is still remarkable whether they were superior or not.
                          Case Yellow went beautifully. Case Red (the completion of the Battle of France) ran like a three-legged dog.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                            Or like they did in Jersey and Guernsey ?

                            This is a very good point, well made, that the froggies defence of their country is comparable to our defence of the Channel Islands works for me!

                            The long toll of the brave
                            Is not lost in darkness
                            Over the fruitful earth
                            And athwart the seas
                            Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                            Unquenchable forever.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Von Richter View Post
                              This is a very good point, well made, that the froggies defence of their country is comparable to our defence of the Channel Islands works for me!

                              Yes of course Von but the C: Isles were hardly set up for defence anyway were they. A reasonable size bunch of fierce boy scouts could have done it! lcm1
                              'By Horse by Tram'.


                              I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                              " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                                Yes of course Von but the C: Isles were hardly set up for defence anyway were they. A reasonable size bunch of fierce boy scouts could have done it! lcm1
                                Exactly.

                                Contrary to popular belief in some quarters, most the French Army actually fought hard, with bravery and determination. They continued fighting for some weeks after Dunkirk. Only when the position was clearly hopeless did they agree to throw in the towel, and even then there were one or two die-hard units that proved very reluctant to do so. If I remember correctly, they had to send in a more senior French officer to persuade them that it really was all over and that they should surrender.
                                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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