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Was the German Army (Heer) really so superior?

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  • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
    Well,I don't see the seriousness of the "argument" of von Richter,saying:the British fought better,because there were more destructions due to air attacks in London,than in Paris .
    I could repy (and I will) that I could use the same meaningless argument by saying :more French civilians (67000) were killed by air attacks than British one (60000),thus,the French were fighting better.
    I think what Von Richter is aiming at is the fact that while the governments of the Western European nations caved in to the German pressure and the real possibility of having their major cities laid in ashes, the British did not.
    The decisions made by the governments of France, Belgium and the Netherlands amongst them to capitulate were in all likelihood made with a view to saving civilian lives. Whether they should or could have successfully kept up resistance remains a matter of debate.
    It remains a fact that the CW forces could fall back to a relative safe haven,
    the armies of the nations on the continent did not have such an option.
    With this, the matter of: should the BEF have stood it's ground on French soil, could also be put forward for the umpteenth time.

    As for the Heer's overall superiority during Fall Gelb (case yellow). This is definitefly a myth.

    Ed.
    Last edited by dutched; 10 Feb 12, 19:37.
    The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by dutched View Post
      I think what Von Richter is aiming at is the fact that while the governments of the Western European nations caved in to the German pressure and the real possibility of having their major cities laid in ashes, the British did not.
      The decisions made by the governments of France, Belgium and the Netherlands amongst them to capitulate were in all likelihood made with a view to saving civilian lives. Whether they should or could have successfully kept up resistance remains a matter of debate.
      It remains a fact that the CW forces could fall back to a relative safe haven,
      the armies of the nations on the continent did not have such an option.
      With this, the matter of: should the BEF have stood it's ground on French soil, could also be put forward for the umpteenth time.

      Ed.
      UMPTEENTH WE CAN DO WITHOUT!!! lcm1
      'By Horse by Tram'.


      I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
      " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
        UMPTEENTH WE CAN DO WITHOUT!!! lcm1
        Suggestion was only put forward perfunctory.
        Have no fear I would get that done and dusted subject out again.

        Ed
        The repetition of affirmations leads to belief. Once that belief becomes a deep conviction, you better wake up and look at the facts.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
          Not wise to ask this:there are pictures of the suburbs of Pais (Boulogne-Billancourt,etc..) ,of Rouen,etc,etc, compared to which the pictures of London are insignifiant
          Btw:the destructions were caused ...by the RAF
          And,why should the destruction of a city prove that an army was fighting or not ?
          I am sure that Grosnain could post these pictures .
          This is a weak point to make,for the RAF to attack the Germans occupying France they HAD to drop bombs on France!.........'Excuse me, would you mind moving France just a little bit,there's some nasty germans we want to attack and your country is in the way!' lcm1
          'By Horse by Tram'.


          I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
          " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
            This is a weak point to make,for the RAF to attack the Germans occupying France they HAD to drop bombs on France!.........'Excuse me, would you mind moving France just a little bit,there's some nasty germans we want to attack and your country is in the way!' lcm1
            Are you all really arguing over body counts? Take a deep breath please or risk being labelled cantankerous old farts. Everyone suffered. Respect where it is due.

            Next?
            Scott Fraser
            Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

            A contentedly cantankerous old fart

            Comment


            • Didn't the defenders of Stalingrad put up signs telling 6th Army that they wouldn't march into their city... like they did Paris?

              The long toll of the brave
              Is not lost in darkness
              Over the fruitful earth
              And athwart the seas
              Hath passed the light of noble deeds
              Unquenchable forever.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Scott Fraser View Post
                Are you all really arguing over body counts? Take a deep breath please or risk being labelled cantankerous old farts. Everyone suffered. Respect where it is due.

                Next?
                Scott Fraser
                I am not arguing over body counts in fact I am not arguing at all! If you read what I was replying to again you will see that I was making the point to his remark about bomb damage in France caused by the RAF,how could damage to some things that were French be avoided in an attack on their German occupiers?? In addition I have every right to refer to myself as an old fart (and often do) that does not give you or anybody else the right to do so and I have what I consider a fairly easy going nature unless I consider that I am being 'got at' as I believe a number of people on this forum will bare out. Sincerely, lcm1
                'By Horse by Tram'.


                I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Von Richter View Post
                  Didn't the defenders of Stalingrad put up signs telling 6th Army that they wouldn't march into their city... like they did Paris?

                  Or like they did in Jersey and Guernsey ?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                    Allied forces landed on D-Day - 156,000

                    German forces in the West - 1,873,000

                    Coming in on this late, I know, but: Magnificent! And they were all in Normandy?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bravo Zero View Post
                      The initial success of the Normandy campaign was relied upon the US and British Airborne Divisions to take out coastal defences and prevent German counter attacks while the Allied ground forces were attacking the beacheads. But had the Heer and the SS fortified Normandy with a vast amount of troops and armour before the 6th June, the Airborne would of been massacred and the whole operation would of failed before it even began.
                      That they didn't was for two major reasons: insufficient intelligence as to Allied operations (you can't plan against what you don't know about), and once it became obvious that this was where the main blow was, insufficient troops to concentrate (a war on how many fronts? Well, how silly).

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Von Richter View Post
                        Ha! Ha! Don't talk bollocks... show me a piccy of Paris to compare with these.

                        [ATTACH]46135[/ATTACH]
                        Stalingrad

                        [ATTACH]46136[/ATTACH]
                        London

                        How grim was the defence of the Channel Islands?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dutched View Post
                          It remains a fact that the CW forces could fall back to a relative safe haven,
                          the armies of the nations on the continent did not have such an option.
                          With this, the matter of: should the BEF have stood it's ground on French soil, could also be put forward for the umpteenth time.
                          Agreed, it was the English channel that saved them. It was the land forces where Nazi Germany's real power was and i beleive had the Heer and SS made it across the channel in vast numbers, i believe surrendering would of been an option as a modern Britain would never of accepted the kind of casualties that Russia had endured and neither was the British populance and exausted BEF as well armed as the Red Army was. Most would of had to of fought with knives, petrol bombs, rifles and home made weapons that would of been no match for an Army and paramilitary force that had just defeated Poland, Norway, France and ect, so they would of had high morale for one thing.

                          Still, Allied command certainly didn't help when it came to protecting France. The whole plan was doomed to fail right from the start because the troops had been placed in all the wrong positions. Hundreds of French aircraft had not even been used!
                          Last edited by Bravo Zero; 11 Feb 12, 04:01.

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                          • This point has already been made, but I'd like to put it in another way.

                            The British "Maginot line" (the Channel and the British Navy) did not fail. Had it failed I don't think British morale would have been better than French morale.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Imperial View Post
                              This point has already been made, but I'd like to put it in another way.

                              The British "Maginot line" (the Channel and the British Navy) did not fail. Had it failed I don't think British morale would have been better than French morale.
                              You think that solely because you were not there or one of them. I am not trying to be smart with you Imperial but just saying the way it was. lcm1
                              'By Horse by Tram'.


                              I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                              " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bravo Zero View Post
                                Agreed, it was the English channel that saved them. It was the land forces where Nazi Germany's real power was and i beleive had the Heer and SS made it across the channel in vast numbers, i believe surrendering would of been an option as a modern Britain would never of accepted the kind of casualties that Russia had endured and neither was the British populance and exausted BEF as well armed as the Red Army was. Most would of had to of fought with knives, petrol bombs, rifles and home made weapons that would of been no match for an Army and paramilitary force that had just defeated Poland, Norway, France and ect, so they would of had high morale for one thing.

                                Still, Allied command certainly didn't help when it came to protecting France. The whole plan was doomed to fail right from the start because the troops had been placed in all the wrong positions. Hundreds of French aircraft had not even been used!
                                I agree with 75% of your first comment BZ, just one flaw in your reasoning,yes we would have fought and in doing so there would have been no question of surrender,they would have had to actually BEAT US trample us down into the ground,decimate us!! This will possibly raise a smile from some at the apparent drama but I do know that is exactly how it was and would have been. lcm1
                                'By Horse by Tram'.


                                I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                                " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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