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  • Broad front, narrow front / Monty, Patton

    Originally posted by lodestar View Post
    I hope I have shown that the comparisons, while subject to some fine-tuning, are indeed valid.
    They are after all about icons.

    . Patton or Monty?
    . American (Direct, Broad front) approach or British (indirect and narrow front) approach to victory?
    These two topics are still the subject of endless debate and I guess are in a way linked.

    Monty of course is often portrayed as the chief proponent of a 'narrow front approach' with a strong bold thrust into the heart of Germany and his fans still defend the concept.
    Or is that an oversimplification?
    Did he return to his ultra-cautious approach after Market-Garden?
    Were the Western allies psychologically, even remotely capable of undertaking anything other than a plodding gradual advance with overwhelming resources and firepower every step of the way as Historian John Ellis postulates in his benchmark masterpiece 'Brute Force'?

    Of course while conventional wisdom has Monty and Patton depicted as bitter rivals they were in essentially different roles of course and I'm not sure THIS comparison is valid.
    More a case of Monty and his 'style' having a fan-base and Patton and his 'style' having one as well.
    Both were in some ways 'media' events.

    Ellis savages both in his chapter 'Lodgement and Breakout' (the Normandy campaign):
    "acute German shortages on one hand and on the other an Allied cornucopia which could provide an overwhelming level of firepower and remorseless stream of replacements that could compensate for all but the grossest tactical betise.
    Add skilled public relations and press hungry for heroes, and you had circumstances that even Montgomery and Patton could seem like great commanders."


    Interesting stuff.

    Regards lodestar

    Comment


    • Okay, I am "resurrecting" this thread (mea culpa) because I have discovered a TV show about WWII that I like even better: "Foyle's War." Very cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TdJ...acJuSVk6zEvCYA
      Will no one tell me what she sings?--
      Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
      For old, unhappy, far-off things,
      And battles long ago:
      -William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"

      Comment


      • 'Foyle's War' still going?

        Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
        Okay, I am "resurrecting" this thread (mea culpa) because I have discovered a TV show about WWII that I like even better: "Foyle's War." Very cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TdJ...acJuSVk6zEvCYA
        Cripes! and Good Grief is it still going??
        Yeah good choice.

        I haven't watched any episodes for around 7-8 years.
        Very underplayed and 'Brit'.
        Usually don't go much on 'team' police shows so I found the cliché of Foyle's inevitably fawning (okay too strong a word...let's say 'admiring') sidekicks a nuisance.
        My experience with real sidekicks is that they almost always secretly detest their 'beloved boss' and wish him/her/it dead!

        Be great to see a show that treated that issue realistically.

        A lot of people in a modern TV audience who like conventionality in their police shows would find it very unsettling I'm sure.

        Still, that aside it was/(is?) a good show.
        Very careful with setting and nuanced WWII l if I remember.

        Thanks for reminding me.

        Regards
        lodestar

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lodestar View Post
          Cripes! and Good Grief is it still going??
          Yeah good choice.

          I haven't watched any episodes for around 7-8 years.
          Very underplayed and 'Brit'.
          Usually don't go much on 'team' police shows so I found the cliché of Foyle's inevitably fawning (okay too strong a word...let's say 'admiring') sidekicks a nuisance.
          My experience with real sidekicks is that they almost always secretly detest their 'beloved boss' and wish him/her/it dead!

          Be great to see a show that treated that issue realistically.

          A lot of people in a modern TV audience who like conventionality in their police shows would find it very unsettling I'm sure.

          Still, that aside it was/(is?) a good show.
          Very careful with setting and nuanced WWII l if I remember.

          Thanks for reminding me.

          Regards
          lodestar
          Yes a good show, was quite sorry when the war ended only last week!! lcm1
          'By Horse by Tram'.


          I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
          " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

          Comment


          • MP suggests Reboot of Dad's Army to Mum's Army

            This recently from ‘The Telegraph’ interested me.
            I for one have always been a strong believer in sensible Political correctness and revisionism when appropriate.

            I’d love to see a new TV Comedy about Indian or African troops in British Service in WWII.
            Not because I think their contribution has been overlooked or ignored but because the topic would make so many people squirm.

            "The Telegraph"
            29 November 2017 • 2:01pm
            An MP has proposed a motion for the BBC to consider a reboot of Dad's Army that reflects women's contribution in the First World War.

            Ian Murray, Labour MP for Edinburgh South, said in Westminster yesterday that a reworked version of the 1960s wartime comedy would be a suitable way of honouring the work of women such as Dr Elsie Inglis, who ran all-female hospitals to support injured troops in the front lines of France, Serbia, Ukraine and Romania.
            Proposing his backbench motion, Murray said: "This House has considered Dr Elsie Inglis and the contribution of women to World War One.
            "For everyone who made an effort, particularly for women, we will do two things: thank them for the service they gave this country and say that we will always remember them.

            "Perhaps, if someone from the BBC is watching, they might want to change Dad's Army to Mum's Army and make a new comedy series about the contribution of women to the war effort."
            If the BBC took Murray's suggestion, it would not be the first instance of Mum's Army on television. In 1970, an episode of Dad's Army saw women allowed into the Walmington-on-Sea platoon. Captain Mainwaring set them to work, suggesting they could offer their services in the canteen or replace buttons on the men's jackets.


            Modern slants on old warhorses. Just love it.
            Great Stuff!

            Regards lodestar

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
              Okay, I am "resurrecting" this thread (mea culpa) because I have discovered a TV show about WWII that I like even better: "Foyle's War." Very cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TdJ...acJuSVk6zEvCYA
              A good show. Quite sorry that it has ended, hoping for a new series. lcm1
              'By Horse by Tram'.


              I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
              " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
                Okay, I am "resurrecting" this thread (mea culpa) because I have discovered a TV show about WWII that I like even better: "Foyle's War." Very cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TdJ...acJuSVk6zEvCYA
                Just by coincidence a commercial TV network in Australia has recently started re-screening the Foyle’s War series from the start which is great because I missed many episodes when it was first screened on ABC (Australian public TV) about sixteen years ago.

                Suffers from ad breaks, the bane of commercial TV (hey there’s a thing).

                Seeing it again I’m still quite impressed by it overall, but as I said earlier, I really get miffed with the usual awful ‘faithful sidekick(s)’ paradigm that plagues so many police shows.
                Like I said, most sidekicks nearly always secretly and seriously loath their supposed ‘mentors’.


                Would you believe a pilot episode of an American version of ‘Dad’s Army’ was made in 1976 called ‘The Rear Guard’ written by David Croft who was one of the creators of the original Dad’s Army.
                The Rear Guard never made into a series but the pilot would be an interesting exercise in comparison.

                Speaking of US versions of UK shows, Foyle’s War is actually one of those quite entertaining British shows that could be given an American ‘makeover’ as so many have been before.
                For example: Till Death do Us Part (US version: All in the Family), Steptoe & Son (US version: Sanford and Son), House of Cards (US version: House of Cards), Porridge (US Version ‘On the Rocks), Life on Mars (US version: Life on Mars) and so on and so on.

                It would probably have to be called ‘Duggan’s War or some such ‘Foyle’ being such limp sounding name for an American TV audience.
                Given that this is a thread about comparing US and UK icons and we are talking about US/UK TV shows, interesting is it not how different cop/detective shows titles are in the UK and America?


                Titles of American shows are forceful, macho and authoritative:, for example: Magnum P.I., Ironside, Kojak, Blue Bloods, SWAT, Baretta, Mannix etc., etc.
                British cops shows, at least the older ones and the better recent ones not this new crop of ‘realistic, gloomy and gritty’ ‘police-noir’ junk that flood the airwaves (the Brits do some great TV, but ‘noir’ isn’t one of them) would have names like Softly Softly, Task Force, Inspector George Gently, Midsomer Murders, Heartbeat, Happy Valley, Rebus, Pie in the Sky, Inspector Lynley and A Touch of Frost.

                Same language as they say, just very different ambience.

                Anyway the comparison of UK/US icons is a very interesting exercise I think.

                Did the US have any equivalent to the Hawker Typhoon and Tempest or the DH Mosquito?

                Regards
                lodestar

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lodestar View Post

                  Just by coincidence a commercial TV network in Australia has recently started re-screening the Foyle’s War series from the start which is great because I missed many episodes when it was first screened on ABC (Australian public TV) about sixteen years ago.

                  Suffers from ad breaks, the bane of commercial TV (hey there’s a thing).

                  Seeing it again I’m still quite impressed by it overall, but as I said earlier, I really get miffed with the usual awful ‘faithful sidekick(s)’ paradigm that plagues so many police shows.
                  Like I said, most sidekicks nearly always secretly and seriously loath their supposed ‘mentors’.


                  Would you believe a pilot episode of an American version of ‘Dad’s Army’ was made in 1976 called ‘The Rear Guard’ written by David Croft who was one of the creators of the original Dad’s Army.
                  The Rear Guard never made into a series but the pilot would be an interesting exercise in comparison.

                  Speaking of US versions of UK shows, Foyle’s War is actually one of those quite entertaining British shows that could be given an American ‘makeover’ as so many have been before.
                  For example: Till Death do Us Part (US version: All in the Family), Steptoe & Son (US version: Sanford and Son), House of Cards (US version: House of Cards), Porridge (US Version ‘On the Rocks), Life on Mars (US version: Life on Mars) and so on and so on.

                  It would probably have to be called ‘Duggan’s War or some such ‘Foyle’ being such limp sounding name for an American TV audience.
                  Given that this is a thread about comparing US and UK icons and we are talking about US/UK TV shows, interesting is it not how different cop/detective shows titles are in the UK and America?


                  Titles of American shows are forceful, macho and authoritative:, for example: Magnum P.I., Ironside, Kojak, Blue Bloods, SWAT, Baretta, Mannix etc., etc.
                  British cops shows, at least the older ones and the better recent ones not this new crop of ‘realistic, gloomy and gritty’ ‘police-noir’ junk that flood the airwaves (the Brits do some great TV, but ‘noir’ isn’t one of them) would have names like Softly Softly, Task Force, Inspector George Gently, Midsomer Murders, Heartbeat, Happy Valley, Rebus, Pie in the Sky, Inspector Lynley and A Touch of Frost.

                  Same language as they say, just very different ambience.

                  Anyway the comparison of UK/US icons is a very interesting exercise I think.

                  Did the US have any equivalent to the Hawker Typhoon and Tempest or the DH Mosquito?

                  Regards
                  lodestar
                  Do you know ls, it is possible for you to write something interesting!! Keep it up old boy, great reading!! lcm1
                  'By Horse by Tram'.


                  I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                  " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lodestar View Post

                    Just by coincidence a commercial TV network in Australia has recently started re-screening the Foyle’s War series from the start which is great because I missed many episodes when it was first screened on ABC (Australian public TV) about sixteen years ago.

                    Suffers from ad breaks, the bane of commercial TV (hey there’s a thing).

                    Seeing it again I’m still quite impressed by it overall, but as I said earlier, I really get miffed with the usual awful ‘faithful sidekick(s)’ paradigm that plagues so many police shows.
                    Like I said, most sidekicks nearly always secretly and seriously loath their supposed ‘mentors’.


                    Would you believe a pilot episode of an American version of ‘Dad’s Army’ was made in 1976 called ‘The Rear Guard’ written by David Croft who was one of the creators of the original Dad’s Army.
                    The Rear Guard never made into a series but the pilot would be an interesting exercise in comparison.

                    Speaking of US versions of UK shows, Foyle’s War is actually one of those quite entertaining British shows that could be given an American ‘makeover’ as so many have been before.
                    For example: Till Death do Us Part (US version: All in the Family), Steptoe & Son (US version: Sanford and Son), House of Cards (US version: House of Cards), Porridge (US Version ‘On the Rocks), Life on Mars (US version: Life on Mars) and so on and so on.

                    It would probably have to be called ‘Duggan’s War or some such ‘Foyle’ being such limp sounding name for an American TV audience.
                    Given that this is a thread about comparing US and UK icons and we are talking about US/UK TV shows, interesting is it not how different cop/detective shows titles are in the UK and America?


                    Titles of American shows are forceful, macho and authoritative:, for example: Magnum P.I., Ironside, Kojak, Blue Bloods, SWAT, Baretta, Mannix etc., etc.
                    British cops shows, at least the older ones and the better recent ones not this new crop of ‘realistic, gloomy and gritty’ ‘police-noir’ junk that flood the airwaves (the Brits do some great TV, but ‘noir’ isn’t one of them) would have names like Softly Softly, Task Force, Inspector George Gently, Midsomer Murders, Heartbeat, Happy Valley, Rebus, Pie in the Sky, Inspector Lynley and A Touch of Frost.

                    Same language as they say, just very different ambience.

                    Anyway the comparison of UK/US icons is a very interesting exercise I think.

                    Did the US have any equivalent to the Hawker Typhoon and Tempest or the DH Mosquito?

                    Regards
                    lodestar
                    All good stuff.

                    It''s particularly instructive to compare the original The Office (Gervais/Merchant) with the later US equivalent. It encapsules,I think, the differing approaches to a similar theme.
                    "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                    Samuel Johnson.

                    Comment


                    • By An Amazing coincidence I was looking at an episode Foyles War last night and straight after it I by chance re-watched on You-Tube a 1981 TV movie about Hitler’s end called ‘The Bunker’ with Antony Hopkins as Hitler and Richard Jordon as Albert Speer.
                      Who should crop as playing German communications officer in the bunker? None other than a very young Michael Kitchen (Foyle) of Foyles war!
                      I hadn’t seen the movie for close on forty years.
                      Not a bad one either for a TV movie.
                      Not a patch on Downfall however, with the great Bruno Ganz in the definite depiction of Hitler’s last days.

                      Speaking of Foyles War the most recent episodes take place in early 1941 and the show is starting to irritate me as the clichés accumulate:
                      . heroic Spitfire pilot (Foyle’s son David) wracked with doubt and fear and getting into very Brit ‘blue funk’ but having an epiphany with the help of romantic interest from one of series sidekick’s (Foyle’s female driver) and of course returning to his duty,

                      . fawning almost simpering sidekicks (how I hate them so)

                      . and of course those awful scripting errors where 1940’s characters show hindsight (masquerading
                      in the show as ‘insights’) or knowledge about the war they couldn’t have had at the time.

                      I also can’t stand those immaculate sets of English country villages, farms and rural landscapes. They remind me to much of Midsummer Murders.
                      And those perfectly reserved ‘vintage’ (or is it ‘veteran’ - I neither know nor care about the difference) cars. Dad’s Army had the same problem on the occasions where the y featured period motor vehicles
                      They all look brand new and so of course completely wrong for the scenes they’re in.

                      However the storylines and mysteries are very good.

                      Catch ‘The Bunker’ (you can easily access You-Tube via the internet as I recently found out).

                      Regard
                      lodestar

                      Comment


                      • [QUOTE=lodestar;n5058291]

                        .
                        And those perfectly reserved ‘vintage’ (or is it ‘veteran’
                        -

                        Neither to be veteran they have to be pre 1905 and vintage is 1930 or earlier. Classic cars is what you want
                        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lodestar View Post
                          By An Amazing coincidence I was looking at an episode Foyles War last night and straight after it I by chance re-watched on You-Tube a 1981 TV movie about Hitler’s end called ‘The Bunker’ with Antony Hopkins as Hitler and Richard Jordon as Albert Speer.
                          Who should crop as playing German communications officer in the bunker? None other than a very young Michael Kitchen (Foyle) of Foyles war!
                          I hadn’t seen the movie for close on forty years.
                          Not a bad one either for a TV movie.
                          Not a patch on Downfall however, with the great Bruno Ganz in the definite depiction of Hitler’s last days.

                          Speaking of Foyles War the most recent episodes take place in early 1941 and the show is starting to irritate me as the clichés accumulate:
                          . heroic Spitfire pilot (Foyle’s son David) wracked with doubt and fear and getting into very Brit ‘blue funk’ but having an epiphany with the help of romantic interest from one of series sidekick’s (Foyle’s female driver) and of course returning to his duty,

                          . fawning almost simpering sidekicks (how I hate them so)

                          . and of course those awful scripting errors where 1940’s characters show hindsight (masquerading
                          in the show as ‘insights’) or knowledge about the war they couldn’t have had at the time.

                          I also can’t stand those immaculate sets of English country villages, farms and rural landscapes. They remind me to much of Midsummer Murders.
                          And those perfectly reserved ‘vintage’ (or is it ‘veteran’ - I neither know nor care about the difference) cars. Dad’s Army had the same problem on the occasions where the y featured period motor vehicles
                          They all look brand new and so of course completely wrong for the scenes they’re in.

                          However the storylines and mysteries are very good.

                          Catch ‘The Bunker’ (you can easily access You-Tube via the internet as I recently found out).

                          Regard
                          lodestar
                          Michael Kitchen also played an interesting role in the original British Tele-drama, House of Cards as a Prince Charles-like monarch :complete with an estranged wife and a young heir-apparant son. (obviously filmed prior to, 1997)
                          The British House of Cards provides another point of comparison with a later American version of a similar theme.
                          "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                          Samuel Johnson.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Desiree Clary View Post
                            Okay, I am "resurrecting" this thread (mea culpa) because I have discovered a TV show about WWII that I like even better: "Foyle's War." Very cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TdJ...acJuSVk6zEvCYA
                            I enjoyed 'Foyles War' at first and recalling the era but it is now irritating me a little. Last nights episode about German bomber crews that had finished up in POW camps, which I found very unconvincing but there, it is directed more at an audience that had never ever seen it in real life. I remember German POWs that finished up in camps in the UK as being very well treated and needed very little guarding! Even the so called 'Nazi types' had the edge taken off there beliefs and were quite happy to sit the war out. I remember some that had a farming background were allowed out to work on local farms with a minimum of security. Still, I can't grouch too much, I will still watch next weeks!! lcm1
                            'By Horse by Tram'.


                            I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                            " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lcm1 View Post

                              I remember German POWs that finished up in camps in the UK as being very well treated and needed very little guarding! Even the so called 'Nazi types' had the edge taken off there beliefs and were quite happy to sit the war out. I remember some that had a farming background were allowed out to work on local farms with a minimum of security. lcm1

                              Yes the treatment of POW's varied incredibly during the war.
                              The Soviets and Poles as most people on the Forum would know suffered immensely in Nazi hands as did Western allied, Indian, Pilipino and above all Chinese POW in Japanese hands.
                              German in the West were very well treated as were Italians and Japanese.
                              Placement of allied on farms was done by the Germans as well.
                              As I've mentioned several times my father spent five years as a POW after Dunkirk.
                              In a POW camp, Stalag XIIIC (NOT the fictional "Luft-Stalag 13" featured in Hogan's Heroes, on a work farm (with a Scottish POW at one point) and in a factory.

                              Escaped from the camp by just slipping out of a gate with some friends (well that's his story), no tunnel, no motorbike, no glider in a tower!
                              Escaped from the farm even though the family treated the prisoners well. Said the farmer talked to him on the morning of June 22 1941 (the launch of Barbarossa of course)and said something like "Oh lodestar's Dad, Deutschland Kaput!"
                              Re-captured after a short period free then sent back to camp. Ended up in a factory in mid 1944.

                              He was from a farming background himself and always said rural folk were nearly always the same (in good and bad way!)
                              wherever you went.

                              Anyone else feel the same way about TV show 'sidekicks' like I do?


                              Regards
                              lodestar



                              Comment


                              • I have not watched the whole Dad's Army series. Where are the ethnics? Even Hogan's Heroes had Ivan Dixon. Where were these guys supposed to have been recruited from?

                                Pruitt
                                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                                Comment

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