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The Dreadnought Hoax

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  • The Dreadnought Hoax

    Monty Python had nothing on these guys in the years immediate to WW 1:



    Here's there first ploy...


  • #2
    It's almost 0200 here, TAG, and I need some sleep. I'll try to plow through this stuff later on today.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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    • #3
      I had heard of the Dreadnought Hoax, but did not know the details. Thanks.

      Tuebor

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      • #4
        Not so sure it was an actual hoax. We could say the same about the Cold War arms race, particularly missiles, but the weapons were very real and very deadly, even if never employed for their designed purpose.
        Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

        Comment


        • #5
          MM, ...

          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Not so sure it was an actual hoax. We could say the same about the Cold War arms race, particularly missiles, but the weapons were very real and very deadly, even if never employed for their designed purpose.
          ... if you viewed TAG's Youtube files, or looked up the "Dreadnought Hoax", you'd KNOW IT WAS AN ACTUAL HOAX:

          "The Dreadnought hoax was a practical joke pulled by Horace de Vere Cole in 1910. Cole tricked the Royal Navy into showing their flagship, the battleship HMS Dreadnought, to a fake delegation of Abyssinian royals. The hoax drew attention in Britain to the emergence of the Bloomsbury Group, among whom some of Cole's collaborators numbered. The hoax was a repeat of a similar impersonation which Cole and Adrian Stephen had organised while they were students at Cambridge in 1905."

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadnought_hoax
          "I am Groot"
          - Groot

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Marmat View Post
            ... if you viewed TAG's Youtube files, or looked up the "Dreadnought Hoax", you'd KNOW IT WAS AN ACTUAL HOAX:

            "The Dreadnought hoax was a practical joke pulled by Horace de Vere Cole in 1910. Cole tricked the Royal Navy into showing their flagship, the battleship HMS Dreadnought, to a fake delegation of Abyssinian royals. The hoax drew attention in Britain to the emergence of the Bloomsbury Group, among whom some of Cole's collaborators numbered. The hoax was a repeat of a similar impersonation which Cole and Adrian Stephen had organised while they were students at Cambridge in 1905."

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadnought_hoax
            However, word gets back that a) the British really have one, and b) it works, and c) it renders all other vessels of its class obsolete. So although the "hoax" occurred", it only served to strengthen the intelligence estimates of the strength f the British High Seas Fleet.

            A minor historical glitch at best.
            Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              However, word gets back that a) the British really have one, and b) it works, and c) it renders all other vessels of its class obsolete. So although the "hoax" occurred", it only served to strengthen the intelligence estimates of the strength f the British High Seas Fleet.

              A minor historical glitch at best.
              There was nothing particularly secret about the Dreadnought all big gun concept, indeed Britain's hand had been to some extent forced by other nations working on similar designs. Had Britain failed to build and launch Dreadnought first she would have had to follow a catch up programme.

              Dreadnought did not "render all other vessels of its class obsolete " dreadnoughts were a class unto themselves. When she was commissioned there were no other vessels of its class. What it did was to introduce a new kind of capital ship that could sink any previous armoured vessel.

              All the hoax did was embarrass the RN. Insomuch as this meant embarrassing Fisher's supporters there would have been some RN officers (Beresford supporters) who would have seen this as no bad thing. One wonders how many turned a blind eye to the hoax because of this.
              Last edited by MarkV; 13 May 18, 07:51.
              Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
              Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by MarkV View Post
                There was nothing particularly secret about the Dreadnought all big gun concept, indeed Britain's hand had been to some extent forced by other nations working on similar designs. Had Britain failed to build and launch Dreadnought first she would have had to follow a catch up programme.....
                Very true, and some navies didn't even have to do much catching up.
                Italy and Japan already had "semi-Dreadnoughts" building, and the US already approved the plans for the South Carolina class... 2,000 tons lighter and with the same broadside.

                Yes, the foolishness with the arrangement of the turrets always bothers me. Germany and Britain both did a lot of weird things with turrets before joining everyone else in the world in going with a more conventional arrangement.
                Why?

                I also think that one Dreadnought would have had serious trouble facing a pair of pre-dreads. The overall firepower would have been the same and the one big ship would have had to split it's fire between two hulls.
                "Why is the Rum gone?"

                -Captain Jack

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post
                  Very true, and some navies didn't even have to do much catching up.
                  Italy and Japan already had "semi-Dreadnoughts" building, and the US already approved the plans for the South Carolina class... 2,000 tons lighter and with the same broadside.

                  Yes, the foolishness with the arrangement of the turrets always bothers me. Germany and Britain both did a lot of weird things with turrets before joining everyone else in the world in going with a more conventional arrangement.
                  Why?

                  I also think that one Dreadnought would have had serious trouble facing a pair of pre-dreads. The overall firepower would have been the same and the one big ship would have had to split it's fire between two hulls.
                  Japan actually had a dreadnought building. She was only completed as a semi because of supply difficulties with the guns

                  The RN actually considered that two Admiral Nelson class battleships could deal with one dreadnought which is why they assigned two battleships of this class for protection should the Goeben sortie from Constantinople in 1915.

                  There was a lot of hype around Dreadnought, mainly put about by Jackie Fisher - a man who would make Donald Trump and Lodestar look unduly modest - who took credit for it. It was really the super dreadnoughts (Orion class onwards) that were the real game changers.

                  The really important but oft overlooked factor was that Britain could build the things faster than anyone else. Fisher boasted a year from keel laying to commissioning but it was in fact closer to 15 months but still faster than anyone else so that Britain was going to win any naval rearmament race.
                  Last edited by MarkV; 21 May 18, 08:41.
                  Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                  Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                    ...

                    There was a lot of hype around Dreadnought, mainly put about by Jackie Fisher - a man who would make Donald Trump and Lodestar look unduly modest - who took credit for it. It was really the super dreadnoughts (Orion class onwards) that were the real game changers....
                    Wow.... thanks for making coming to this thread to get away from Politics such a crappy idea.
                    "Why is the Rum gone?"

                    -Captain Jack

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Exorcist View Post

                      Wow.... thanks for making coming to this thread to get away from Politics such a crappy idea.
                      Yeah, but it is true, and kinda funny. I chuckled!

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