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  • The Spanish Civil War

    After the upheavals of WWI Europe was ruined economically. Spain had been smart enough to stay out of the bloody mess, as had Sweden. However Spain had been in decline since the reign of Carlos III, the last Spanish monarch who had any idea about governing a country. There were two Carlista wars, said to have been inspired by the tremendous sexual appetites of Queen Isabella (probably from some of her lovers!)

    The Spanish had their bottoms spanked at Anual by abd-el-Krim in 1921. This caused the dictatorship of Miguel Primo de Rivera to come to power. As far as dictators got, he was the least of any in Europe. His policies were building the Spanish economy and getting rid of the corrupt, ancient fossilized framework which was corroding the country. Yes my friends unlike Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini and Franco; Miguel Primo de Rivera was a stalibilizing force in Spain while in office.
    When looking for the reason why things go wrong, never rule out stupidity, Murphy's Law Nº 8
    Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana
    "Ach du schwein" a German parrot captured at Bukoba GEA the only prisoner taken

  • #2
    The Spanish Civil War while receiving a great deal of political attention, has not received enough from military historians, purely from a military viewpoint. Partly this is because it taught the allies (including the Russians) and the Italians all the wrong lessons fom fighting a modern war, only the Germen who had a small force learned the true lessons from their limited involvemnet in aerial and tank combat.

    This was because the Spanish Civil War had more in common with the tacitics of the First World War, with its long mainly static defense lines. This was because while the two rival Spanish armies (and the Italians too) had a large number of men they lacked in the main the latest weapons. So it was a war dominated by the machine gun and the rifle, even artillery was not provided on the same scale as the First World War.

    The one thing the war did provide in helping the Germens and the Russians use the combat experince to design better planes and tanks, which were developed during the early stage of WWII. However the Russians unlike the Germens did not realise the need to use tanks in mass rather than in penny pockets.
    War is less costly than servitude

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Nickuru View Post
      After the upheavals of WWI Europe was ruined economically. Spain had been smart enough to stay out of the bloody mess, as had Sweden. However Spain had been in decline since the reign of Carlos III, the last Spanish monarch who had any idea about governing a country. There were two Carlista wars, said to have been inspired by the tremendous sexual appetites of Queen Isabella (probably from some of her lovers!)

      The Spanish had their bottoms spanked at Anual by abd-el-Krim in 1921. This caused the dictatorship of Miguel Primo de Rivera to come to power. As far as dictators got, he was the least of any in Europe. His policies were building the Spanish economy and getting rid of the corrupt, ancient fossilized framework which was corroding the country. Yes my friends unlike Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini and Franco; Miguel Primo de Rivera was a stalibilizing force in Spain while in office.
      You don't rate Juan Carlos ,then ?
      "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
      Samuel Johnson.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
        You don't rate Juan Carlos ,then ?
        I personally rate King Juan Carlos as Spain's best monarch since Carlos III.
        When looking for the reason why things go wrong, never rule out stupidity, Murphy's Law Nº 8
        Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana
        "Ach du schwein" a German parrot captured at Bukoba GEA the only prisoner taken

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        • #5
          To what extent was foreign influence critical in the Spanish Civil War? IMHO it was a war fought by opposing power groups and the Spanish people were the cannon fodder.

          The Spanish social system dates from the reforms of the Napoleonic era. The reforms after the Carlista wars had brought into power an uneasy alliance of Sagasta, a Liberal and Cánovas a conservative who tried to guide a Spain (Castilian as well as Euskadi and Catalunya) into the 20th century. Sagasta died in 1905, and sadly Cánovas was assasinated in 1906. The government´s support had been eroded in people´s minds by the lewd and obscene behaviour of Queen Isabella II, before the Carlista wars; who was said to be more interested in the bedroom than in conducting government.
          When looking for the reason why things go wrong, never rule out stupidity, Murphy's Law Nº 8
          Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana
          "Ach du schwein" a German parrot captured at Bukoba GEA the only prisoner taken

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          • #6
            Having lost the Spanish-American war. Spain had an excess of out of work soldiers on their hands. This led to the futile attempts at conquest in Morrocco.

            Spain was actually lucky that they lost to the Americans. Spain no longer could support an overseas empire. Spain was ruined and stayed out of WWI, in spite of many in King Alfonso's government who wanted to join the Central Powers.This would have been an interesting diplomatic problem since it would have infuenced Italy's participation in WWI.
            When looking for the reason why things go wrong, never rule out stupidity, Murphy's Law Nº 8
            Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana
            "Ach du schwein" a German parrot captured at Bukoba GEA the only prisoner taken

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            • #7
              Considering the political vacuum and the social tensions at the time, Spain was lucky to avoid WWI. Much trade was made, a few ships were sunk but Spain actually improved her economy after WWI.

              Miguel Primo de Rivera ran an efficient government (by Spanish standards of the previous century). The forces calling for reforms and an end to caziqueism and political control by the elite of the vast majority of the population exploded, with the Great Depression.

              The reformers were of many different parties. There were the Republicans, mostly middle class intellectuals. There were the Socialists who were strong in the Basque countries, and in the coal and iron mines in Asturias and Cantabria, such as La Felguera.

              In the south (Andalucia) the communists had strong political support. In Catalunya, the anarchists had their greatest support. They were of the opinion that farming was to be done as a community and industry was to be run by a collective.

              There were division among the communists, between the Stalinists and the POUM which were Trotskyist and believed in revolution as a means to achieve equality of peoples. Ref: Hugh Thomas, The Spanish Civil War, Gabriel Jackson: The Spanish Republic and the Civil War, The Passionate War Peter Whyden and other sources if interested.
              Last edited by Nickuru; 04 Jan 13, 00:10. Reason: spelling
              When looking for the reason why things go wrong, never rule out stupidity, Murphy's Law Nº 8
              Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana
              "Ach du schwein" a German parrot captured at Bukoba GEA the only prisoner taken

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              • #8
                Is there a good military history of Spanish Civil war with details which is not too much on the politics front.
                the couple of books like hemingway et all write so much of good stuff about the communists that if you have not read- gulag archipelago you will become a communist.

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                • #9
                  Actually you may get everything from even some wikis, some are good, some are incoherent and some are biased.

                  Politics was the crucial factor in the Spanish Civil War. You cannot separate the politics behind the individual battle campaigns.

                  Let us look at: The Assasination of Federico Garcia Lorca, by the Irish historian Ian Gibson:
                  Granada, la ciudad que mató a su poeta. Granada was taken over with ease by the murdering facists who proceeded to murder without trial: socialists, communists, POUMists, anarchists, and republicans and conservatives as well as anyone who was rich enough to have their assets taken over.

                  If you think this was a war between some group of armchair generals gassing on the blackboard about their battle plans, I suggest you go and talk to the Taleban and al-Qaeda about their peace proposals.
                  Last edited by Nickuru; 08 Jan 13, 08:39. Reason: spelling
                  When looking for the reason why things go wrong, never rule out stupidity, Murphy's Law Nº 8
                  Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana
                  "Ach du schwein" a German parrot captured at Bukoba GEA the only prisoner taken

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shri View Post
                    Is there a good military history of Spanish Civil war with details which is not too much on the politics front.
                    the couple of books like hemingway et all write so much of good stuff about the communists that if you have not read- gulag archipelago you will become a communist.
                    The best military history I have read on this war is 'The Spanish Civil War' by Antony Beevor, the overall book on the spanish Civil War including the politics of the war is 'The Spanish Civil War' by Hugh Thomas.
                    War is less costly than servitude

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                    • #11
                      Antony Beevor is a great historian. He along with Richard Evans have the least biased information of the Great Depression and the buildup to WWII. Both of them have a ton of references worth reading.
                      When looking for the reason why things go wrong, never rule out stupidity, Murphy's Law Nº 8
                      Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana
                      "Ach du schwein" a German parrot captured at Bukoba GEA the only prisoner taken

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Wasn't it the Spanish civil war that gave the Germans the idea that bombing of cities could be an effective terror weapon? I remember reading of comparisons between bombing Rotterdam and Durnica (? Spelling)

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                        • #13
                          You might be referring to Guernika, which the Condor Legion under von Richtofen (Manfred's cousin) who just simply shot up and bombed the entire town to pieces. And then he boasted about a great victory
                          When looking for the reason why things go wrong, never rule out stupidity, Murphy's Law Nº 8
                          Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana
                          "Ach du schwein" a German parrot captured at Bukoba GEA the only prisoner taken

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nickuru View Post
                            Antony Beevor is a great historian.
                            Anthony Beevor - not biased? That's something definitely new. His "Stalingrad" is one of the most biased books I've read, to be accompanied with "Enema at the gates" showings.
                            www.histours.ru

                            Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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                            • #15
                              Gurnica was the one indeed. My memory is shocking without my reference books

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