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  • Originally posted by spwgame View Post
    I certainly didn't say the French and British had an alliance. I would say though that the British were certainly preparing should the Germans take action.
    And the issue is not really there. It could be considered as almost certain that the British would support the french, with or without a formal alliance . The German leadership certainly considered it as a given .

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    • Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
      He had one plan.
      Joffre had many plans. Even the mobilization itself (Plan 17) had all sorts of variations.


      'Acting as if?' Could you expand on that a little?
      The British were "acting as if" their neutrality was a possibility when, the moment France became engaged, it was not.

      Mobilisation orders were issued late on 4th August after the Cabinet had decided to go to war. Quite how you get the idea that Haldane and Asquith did this without their knowledge is a mystery to me.
      Asquith penned the order for mobilization on his own, AFAIK. Churchill mobilized the navy on his own, AFAIK.

      Lol! It would depend on who was in government. Had the 'Radicals' within the Liberals held sway there would have been no entry into the war in August 1914. They objected to the letter anyway, fearing it gave away too much.
      Grey made policy for a Liberal government, not a Radical one.

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      • Originally posted by pasar View Post
        And the issue is not really there. It could be considered as almost certain that the British would support the french, with or without a formal alliance . The German leadership certainly considered it as a given .
        The German neutrality offer of 29 July 1914 to Great Britain is completely inexplicable if the Germans considered British neutrality impossible on that date.

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        • The Germans should have allied with Russia against Austria-Hungary. Germany's only potentially realizable gain from the war would have been territory where people speak German, and all that area was in Aus-Hun.

          But then they went and cancelled the Russian agreements, and then decided to build a Navy (threatening Britain).

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          • Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
            The German neutrality offer of 29 July 1914 to Great Britain is completely inexplicable if the Germans considered British neutrality impossible on that date.
            No, it is not because you assume that it is going to side with France that you would not make an attempt to convince it to act otherwise.

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            • I wonder how the Germans were thinking of British neutrality while knowing their plans involved invading Belgium and Luxembourg. I guess they thought the British guaranties to these places were just "diplomatic gas".

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              • Originally posted by spwgame View Post
                The Germans should have allied with Russia against Austria-Hungary. Germany's only potentially realizable gain from the war would have been territory where people speak German, and all that area was in Aus-Hun.
                .
                That was out of the question :it would mean the Russians in Prague,Budapest and Germany a Russian satellite .

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                • Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                  Thank you. Perhaps you could answer the questions I posed to peterhof rather than just pushing wind around?



                  You're not even at the starting gate old chap.
                  You need to chill out here dude. Just because you disagree with someone does not give you the right to demean and degrade them as a person. Please have some respect for others' opinions. Even though I myself do not agree with most of Peterhof's opinions I am willing to discuss them, since I may learn points of view which I had not considered as well as references to writings I had not known of.
                  When looking for the reason why things go wrong, never rule out stupidity, Murphy's Law Nº 8
                  Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. George Santayana
                  "Ach du schwein" a German parrot captured at Bukoba GEA the only prisoner taken

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                  • Originally posted by spwgame View Post
                    The Germans should have allied with Russia against Austria-Hungary. Germany's only potentially realizable gain from the war would have been territory where people speak German, and all that area was in Aus-Hun.
                    Sounds like a good plan to get Austria, France and Russia all in an alliance against Germany.

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                    • Originally posted by pasar View Post
                      No, it is not because you assume that it is going to side with France that you would not make an attempt to convince it to act otherwise.
                      The only reason to try and 'convince it to act otherwise' would be if one believed this were possible. Hence, the 29 July neutrality offer being iproof that the Germans, on that date, considered British neutrality a possibility.

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                      • Originally posted by spwgame View Post
                        I wonder how the Germans were thinking of British neutrality while knowing their plans involved invading Belgium and Luxembourg. I guess they thought the British guaranties to these places were just "diplomatic gas".
                        Moltke had taken the measure of the British in 1908 and concluded they were duplicitious lawyer types. He had not a moment's time for the idea of British neutrality.

                        Bethmann viewed the matter geopolitically. Since the British had said they would not necessarily fight for France, he assumed, quite reasonably, that the terms of a peace treaty with France would determine whether Britain needed to fight or not, and that moving through Belgium/Lux were of minor concern. This, from the fact that no one in Europe believed France would abandon Russia, hence, the impossibility of French neutrality in any concievable German war in Europe.

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                        • Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
                          Moltke had taken the measure of the British in 1908 and concluded they were duplicitious lawyer types. He had not a moment's time for the idea of British neutrality.

                          Bethmann viewed the matter geopolitically. Since the British had said they would not necessarily fight for France, he assumed, quite reasonably, that the terms of a peace treaty with France would determine whether Britain needed to fight or not, and that moving through Belgium/Lux were of minor concern. This, from the fact that no one in Europe believed France would abandon Russia, hence, the impossibility of French neutrality in any concievable German war in Europe.
                          and

                          Originally posted by Glenn239 View Post
                          The only reason to try and 'convince it to act otherwise' would be if one believed this were possible. Hence, the 29 July neutrality offer being iproof that the Germans, on that date, considered British neutrality a possibility.
                          Two contradictory views, one of which isn't even supported by rational thinking. Comments, Glenn?

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                          • Germany considered Russia unready for war, and remembered that German support in 1908 had prevented a wider war. Germany offered support with the proviso that Austria act "quickly" while European outrage was still fresh and would thus preclude any Russian intervention. "The sooner the Austrians make their move against Serbia the better" said General Plessen. On July 9, Jagow urged the Austrian Ambassador in Berlin that "the proposed action against Serbia should be taken without delay." On July 12, Tschirschky called on Berchtold "principally to impress upon the Minister once more, emphatically, that quick action was called for."


                            At that point, Berlin did not imagine that England might become involved. But Berlin did not know that Sir Edward Grey had given personal assurances of armed support to Poincare. Nor did Berlin know that similar assurances had been given by Sir Edward to Sasonov. Berlin DID know that the Russian attitude depended in large part upon the attitude in London and that attitude, Berlin believed, was neutrality. This was confirmed on July 26 when the German Naval Attache in London reported to the German Naval Staff Office that:

                            "King of Great Britain [George V] said to Prince Henry of Prussia [the brother of the Kaiser] that England would maintain neutrality in case war should break out between Continental Powers." (K.D. 207)

                            Asked later whether he might have been mistaken about the assertion of neutrality by the British King, the Prussian King replied that King George was quite explicit and his meaning could not have been mistaken.

                            The Kaiser later maintained that:

                            "King George had communicated England's intention to remain neutral to me by Prince Henry."

                            Furthermore, Grey had written that:

                            "No crime has ever aroused deeper or more general horror throughout Europe. Sympathy for Austria was universal. Both governments and public opinion were ready to support her in any measures, HOWEVER SEVERE (my italics), which she might think it necessary to take for the punishment of the murderer and his accomplices."

                            There were, in other words, plenty of reasons for Germany to count upon (or at least hope for) British neutrality.
                            Last edited by peterhof; 25 Jan 13, 14:42.
                            "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo

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                            • And,as what George V said was irrelevant (any backbencher had more power than George V),the whole statement is irrelevant .

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                              • Originally posted by peterhof;245093


                                The Kaiser later maintained that:

                                [B
                                "King George had communicated England's intention to remain neutral to me by Prince Henry." [/B]
                                The Kaiser also maintained in his memoirs that Belgium was not neutral,because the Germans had found British army overcoats in Belgium.

                                I maintain that the Kaiser needed a long holiday at Fuller (Massachusetts)

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