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  • Time for the return of the naval brigade?

    https://www.reddit.com/r/navygeneral...e_a_come_back/
    the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

    A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
    A man dies and leaves his name,
    A teacher dies and teaches death.
    Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

  • #2
    Off topic but during the later half of 20th century was there any efforts devoted to building fast troop transports ? Which can carry such naval brigades ? By any major navy ?
    in ww2 many sides used their destroyers as fast troop transports.Why cant the Soviets, US, french and RN convert the older destroyers to such transports ?
    Bu fast I mean 32 knots or more to keep up with the destroyers/ cruisers frigates

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    • #3
      Originally posted by nastle View Post
      Off topic but during the later half of 20th century was there any efforts devoted to building fast troop transports ? Which can carry such naval brigades ? By any major navy ?
      in ww2 many sides used their destroyers as fast troop transports.Why cant the Soviets, US, french and RN convert the older destroyers to such transports ?
      Bu fast I mean 32 knots or more to keep up with the destroyers/ cruisers frigates
      fast transports were intended to deliver marines and soldiers. naval brigades were made up of ship's company historically, but the spearhead class program probably started at the very end of the 20th century.
      the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

      A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
      A man dies and leaves his name,
      A teacher dies and teaches death.
      Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

      Comment


      • #4
        In these politically correct days will they accept women as riflemen?

        Pruitt
        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
          In these politically correct days will they accept women as riflemen?

          Pruitt
          considering woman are being accepted into ranger school i'd imagine they would though i don't see what relevance that has to the subject..
          the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

          A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
          A man dies and leaves his name,
          A teacher dies and teaches death.
          Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

          Comment


          • #6
            In the "old days", with lesser equipped peoples, naval parties made sense. Nowadays, with every 3rd World country awash in AK's and the like, it doesn't. With today's more sophisticated warships, sailors need to focus on their primary job. Ashore, they would just get in the way. His armament for a 5 man section is even off. He says they should have an M240 and two grenadiers. One M249 and one grenadier would be more realistic. He even contradicts himself by saying members of the ship's guard aren't even trained on personal weapons, yet he wants to give them infantry training. If the need arises, just add a squad/platoon of Marines to the ship's complement.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by johns624 View Post
              In the "old days", with lesser equipped peoples, naval parties made sense. Nowadays, with every 3rd World country awash in AK's and the like, it doesn't. With today's more sophisticated warships, sailors need to focus on their primary job. Ashore, they would just get in the way. His armament for a 5 man section is even off. He says they should have an M240 and two grenadiers. One M249 and one grenadier would be more realistic. He even contradicts himself by saying members of the ship's guard aren't even trained on personal weapons, yet he wants to give them infantry training. If the need arises, just add a squad/platoon of Marines to the ship's complement.
              where exactly are you going to put a squad let alone a platoon of marines on a DDG?
              the answer to the current lack of training is more training...not sure what your issue is with that...not sure what AKs have to do with anything...in the old days naval brigades were facing against more or less equivalent armament as what they had...at least in regards to small arms...
              the team make up will be open to debate and argument sure, but why not two M203s? what exactly do you gain by removing one of them?
              the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

              A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
              A man dies and leaves his name,
              A teacher dies and teaches death.
              Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

              Comment


              • #8
                If you're saying that a Chinese Boxer was equivalent to an Afghan fighter, then I just don't know.
                Back in the old days, Marines were in charge of some of the guns.
                An M203 grenadier's primary weapon is the grenade launcher. There's a reason that they normally don't have 2 in a fireteam. It's another weapon the soldier needs to remain proficient in.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                  If you're saying that a Chinese Boxer was equivalent to an Afghan fighter, then I just don't know.
                  Back in the old days, Marines were in charge of some of the guns.
                  An M203 grenadier's primary weapon is the grenade launcher. There's a reason that they normally don't have 2 in a fireteam. It's another weapon the soldier needs to remain proficient in.
                  the idea that the boxer rebellion was the only time naval brigades were used is a pretty misguided belief...every time marines went ashore until the early 20th century there was a naval brigade supporting them...even in the 20th century naval brigades operated in vietnam...

                  yes back in the day marines manned some guns...but they were accounted for when it came to a ship's personnel accomodations.
                  back in i believe it was 2012 maybe late 2011 SECNAV said he was going to put marines back on DDGs and CGs, again...obviously that never panned out...i'd bet it's because modern ships weren't built and designed with carrying marines for prolonged periods of time in mind...i.e. theres no berthing spaces for them and no spaces for their work center to be...unless the idea is to replace round barrel GMs with marines which wouldn't happen wouldn't give you enough extra space to come any where near a platoon's worth.
                  the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                  A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                  A man dies and leaves his name,
                  A teacher dies and teaches death.
                  Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I never said the Boxer Rebellion was the only time. It is what is known as an "example".
                    What kind of "naval brigade" was there in Vietnam? I've never heard of any.
                    Can you give any examples of where 10-20 landed sailors would have made a difference anywhere in the last 50 years?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by johns624 View Post
                      I never said the Boxer Rebellion was the only time. It is what is known as an "example".
                      What kind of "naval brigade" was there in Vietnam? I've never heard of any.
                      Can you give any examples of where 10-20 landed sailors would have made a difference anywhere in the last 50 years?
                      speculatively 20 sailors bringing 4 MGs and 4-8 203s being dropped off by helo and supported by said helos could have made a huge difference in tripoli. you also can't really say that there were any instances where 20 sailors armed and trained to fight ashore wouldn't have made a difference either...it's all just speculation from either side...i doubt you'd believe 18 men from a recon unit would be able to hold off 500 german paratroopers...so ya you can't really say for sure what situations could have been notably effected by the presence of 10-20 sailors
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__DpninsWP4

                      then you specifically cherry picked one example to create a strawman argument, rather than speaking honestly.
                      a better example of the use of a naval brigade would be the battle of ganghwa...where a force primarily made up of sailors defeated a force of the korean army

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ganghwa

                      or the naval brigade's involvement in the seige of apia
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Apia

                      according to the navy, a naval brigade was even involved in the LA Watts riots

                      as for the naval brigade in vietnam

                      https://www.history.navy.mil/researc...ppendices.html

                      https://www.history.navy.mil/researc...y-us-navy.html
                      about 3/4 of the way down is a picture of a naval brigade in vietnam as well
                      Last edited by General_Jacke; 21 Apr 20, 17:28.
                      the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                      A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                      A man dies and leaves his name,
                      A teacher dies and teaches death.
                      Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Didn't the French use a Naval Brigade in Vietnam? In the past, there were often large warships that could land some of the crew until the Naval Landing Force/Marines got there. The Japanese did it in China a number of times. In present times, what warship has the capacity to land several hundred crew and still operate the ship? To get that many extra people these days, you might have to go back to hammocks. You would still need to enlarge the mess facilities. The Heads may need enlarging as well.

                        Pruitt
                        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                          Didn't the French use a Naval Brigade in Vietnam? In the past, there were often large warships that could land some of the crew until the Naval Landing Force/Marines got there. The Japanese did it in China a number of times. In present times, what warship has the capacity to land several hundred crew and still operate the ship? To get that many extra people these days, you might have to go back to hammocks. You would still need to enlarge the mess facilities. The Heads may need enlarging as well.

                          Pruitt
                          typically in the past a landing force would be about 2/3 sailors and 1/3 marines up until the 20th century. even in the early 20th century there was still some decent sized naval brigades going ashore.

                          doesn't necessarily need to be several hundred sailors.
                          20 sailors with a few MGs, grenade launchers and a helo or two supporting with an HMG and rockets/missiles can go a long way.

                          besides might not just be 20 sailors from one ship, could 60 sailors from 3 ships in a SAG

                          if you read the post, the naval brigade would be primarily defensive rather than offensive like in the past.
                          Last edited by General_Jacke; 21 Apr 20, 17:42.
                          the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                          A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                          A man dies and leaves his name,
                          A teacher dies and teaches death.
                          Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The troops assigned to a warship was called the ship's contingent. If you combined several together you could call it a Brigade, but I don't call twenty men a Brigade.

                            Pruitt
                            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                              The troops assigned to a warship was called the ship's contingent. If you combined several together you could call it a Brigade, but I don't call twenty men a Brigade.

                              Pruitt
                              it was called a naval brigade regardless of if the troops came from one ship or multiple ships...but now you're just trying to play at semantics rather than discussing the validity of the idea itself.
                              the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                              A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                              A man dies and leaves his name,
                              A teacher dies and teaches death.
                              Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                              Comment

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