Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Navantia missing something?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Navantia missing something?

    My title is half-facetious but you have to wonder. They've had two of their modern navy ships sink under, shall we say, less than extreme circumstances. Are they just unlucky or are their design and construction practices suspect?

  • #2
    Regarding the Norwegian frigate KNM Helge Ingstad, hitting a ship weighing 62,557 tons and a deadweight of 112,939 tons won't end well. But, the watertight compartments did not work as designed to prevent progressive flooding.

    A preliminary investigation by Norwegian authorities found that confusion on the Ingstad’sbridge was the immediate cause of the collision, but that the ship sank because of progressive flooding. After the collision, water quickly moved through several watertight compartments, apparently via the ship’s propeller shafts, which pass through the bulkheads between the compartments through theoretically watertight openings (known as stuffing tubes or stuffing boxes) that should prevent progressive flooding.

    Based on crew interviews, authorities determined that the stuffing boxes weren’t working properly, jeopardising the watertightness of the ship. The investigation report warned that the faults that sunk the Ingstad could also be in other Navantia ships, raising questions about a possible problem with the design.
    I'm not up to date with the Naiguatá story but it appears she rammed the bow of the RCGS Resolute and may have suffered similar internal damage/deformation that compromised her watertight integrity. It doesn't help that the RCGS Resolute's hull and propulsion was strengthened for ice in Arctic conditions. So the patrol boat probably got sliced up quite easily.

    All in all, Navantia's damage control compartments need to be heavily scrutinised and future designs need to show that they comply or exceed their customer's requirements.
    "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
    Ernest Hemingway.

    Comment


    • #3
      From pictures that I have seen, the Venezuelan ship rammed the German ship and all the German ship's damage appeared to be well above the waterline.

      Comment


      • #4
        Here is a drawing of what's underneath her waterline.

        rcgs-resolute-profile.jpg
        "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
        Ernest Hemingway.

        Comment


        • #5
          I would also suspect that the Venezuelan Navy has garbage tier damage control training and maintenance.

          I for one found it hilarious that the Venezuelan Navy tries piracy and gets sunk by self inflicted damage from it's own attack. Karma at its finest.
          Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

          Comment


          • #6
            Seems Norway was having issues maintaining these frigates once in service.
            This report was back in 2017... another link in that story dates back to 2009.
            https://www.newsinenglish.no/2017/02...gate-troubles/

            The collision may have actually twisted the axle of the frigate, thus negating the water integrity along the internal structure. I mean it suffered two cracks to the hull, one was 40 metres long(almost a third of the ship's length). Hitting something heavier than an aircraft carrier navy will no doubt rupture compartments all along the hull, causing seals to break or fail. The crew on the frigate were ultimately responsible for the accident, but I'm cautious about laying too much blame on Navantia. Sure there could be improvements to strengthening the internal structure in the event of a sudden shock to the hull, but does that add too much weight on a limited space?
            "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
            Ernest Hemingway.

            Comment


            • #7
              Well, a frigate is always going to be a compromise. And strengthening the structure substantially is going to reduce range, speed, tonnage available for electronics or weapons, etc.

              So I can't necessarily blame Navantia for this. The end user knew what sort of compromises they were accepting, and were just hoping that the increased capabilities would be worth the hassle in the long run.

              Turns out that they weren't.
              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

              Comment


              • #8
                Regarding the RCGS Resolute it has the highest ice-class rating in the expedition cruise industry, "apparently".
                Strengthened to Class 1A Super (Germanischer Lloyd E4), she is an authentic expedition polar vessel. Now I don't know about these ratings compared to military grade steel on naval ships, but the bulbous bow is what did the damage in this incident. The patrol boat captain really did pick the wrong fight.
                "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                Ernest Hemingway.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Never bring a knife to a gunfight...or a rowboat to a naval engagement.

                  When Isambard Kingdom Brunel built the Great Eastern he took great pains to insure water-tight integrity to the point where the vessel was compromised severely in performing her intended role as a passenger liner. The problem? Too many watertight doors along major corridors that interfered with passengers strolling about. Turned out passengers were far more desirous of freedom of movement than of safety.
                  Last edited by Mountain Man; 05 Apr 20, 16:26.
                  Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                    Well, a frigate is always going to be a compromise. And strengthening the structure substantially is going to reduce range, speed, tonnage available for electronics or weapons, etc.

                    So I can't necessarily blame Navantia for this. The end user knew what sort of compromises they were accepting, and were just hoping that the increased capabilities would be worth the hassle in the long run.

                    Turns out that they weren't.
                    To be fair helge was generally within tonnage that is typically accepted as DDG territory as well being over 5000 tons
                    the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                    A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                    A man dies and leaves his name,
                    A teacher dies and teaches death.
                    Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Regarding the KNM Helge Ingstad, the flooding seems to have been caused by water passing through the propellor shafts, which pass through the bulkhead and compartments. The watertight openings (known as stuffing tubes or stuffing boxes) should've prevent progressive flooding. Now it's up to the investigators to determine if the collision caused these stuffing boxes to fail or if there's an underlying fault that has been overlooked or unforeseen.
                      "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                      Ernest Hemingway.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Flooding through the shafts has always been a major problem, see HMS Prince of Wales for one example. I won't yet hold it against Navantia, though it does seem that either they or the end user could have emphasized more integrity measures in lieu of some of the other systems, comforts, etc that would have fit into the tonnage.

                        The biggest thing is that nations are trying to put quarts into pint pots. Something's gonna give. And overall, with the capability of torpedoes and missiles these days, a lot of that give is coming from the general resilience of the ship itself, under the assumption that a hit is a kill, so don't get hit.
                        Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Comment

                          Latest Topics

                          Collapse

                          Working...
                          X