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Commandant calls current Marine amphibious ships unsuitable

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  • #31
    Originally posted by MarkV View Post

    No not beneath them but close to them - they allow a claim to territorial waters around them.
    i believe they create a new EEZ around them not just the 12nm of territorial waters.
    the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

    A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
    A man dies and leaves his name,
    A teacher dies and teaches death.
    Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

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    • #32
      It will interesting to see what the Commandant will come up with. All ships will be relatively slow, so until the hypersonic troop jet is brought into service that can drop Marines and equipment within a few hours anywhere in the world the next best thing is ground effect craft that are part ship and part aircraft. Those things have many faults and issues.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-effect_vehicle

      If they DO decide to stick with ships because they can bring in heavy equipment and supplies, then they have to decide how they will do that. Distribute the landing force? In many smaller cheaper ships (LST sized)? The manpower for the smaller ships will be more than the big amphibs they have now. Will they give each smaller ship a self-defense weapon loadout, if so how big? Last-ditch CIWSs such as Phalanx or SeaRAM? Local area weapons such as ESSM with the related combat system?

      Or will they go with sneaky methods, such as civilian vessels of opportunity, subs? Crazy times.

      I am interested in which direction they will go.

      Comment


      • #33
        Lets just toy with one scenario, capturing one of the contested islands. Why would one need amphibious assault capability when the island(most if not all) has docking facilities and an airstrip?
        "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
        Ernest Hemingway.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post
          Lets just toy with one scenario, capturing one of the contested islands. Why would one need amphibious assault capability when the island(most if not all) has docking facilities and an airstrip?
          Because the docking and airstrip areas are doubtless heavily fortified and also mined/contain demolition charges
          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Afghanisdan View Post
            It will interesting to see what the Commandant will come up with. All ships will be relatively slow, so until the hypersonic troop jet is brought into service that can drop Marines and equipment within a few hours anywhere in the world the next best thing is ground effect craft that are part ship and part aircraft. Those things have many faults and issues.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-effect_vehicle

            If they DO decide to stick with ships because they can bring in heavy equipment and supplies, then they have to decide how they will do that. Distribute the landing force? In many smaller cheaper ships (LST sized)? The manpower for the smaller ships will be more than the big amphibs they have now. Will they give each smaller ship a self-defense weapon loadout, if so how big? Last-ditch CIWSs such as Phalanx or SeaRAM? Local area weapons such as ESSM with the related combat system?

            Or will they go with sneaky methods, such as civilian vessels of opportunity, subs? Crazy times.

            I am interested in which direction they will go.
            he was talking relative speed. pretty much all of the USN's amphibs have a speed of 22kts. thats slow relative to the other classes the navy has. i don't think he means slow compared to other things...
            the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

            A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
            A man dies and leaves his name,
            A teacher dies and teaches death.
            Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post
              Lets just toy with one scenario, capturing one of the contested islands. Why would one need amphibious assault capability when the island(most if not all) has docking facilities and an airstrip?
              do you think the chinese will just sit there and wait for the marines to be let off at the pier, or wait for a C-130 to land and disembark the marines?
              the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

              A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
              A man dies and leaves his name,
              A teacher dies and teaches death.
              Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post

                do you think the chinese will just sit there and wait for the marines to be let off at the pier, or wait for a C-130 to land and disembark the marines?
                You're not even close to what I was suggesting...

                I'm just being the devil's advocate here, to glean any new info in regards to the islands themselves... in this case, are they really heavily defended with mines ect?
                "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                Ernest Hemingway.

                Comment


                • #38
                  The US has no territorial claims in these waters and the locals can't afford to hire us. Why does the Navy need something to land on these reefs and artificial islands?

                  Pruitt
                  Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                  Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                  by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                    The US has no territorial claims in these waters and the locals can't afford to hire us. Why does the Navy need something to land on these reefs and artificial islands?

                    Pruitt
                    Given the issues of building quality, the infrastructure and artificial land extensions may fall in disrepair faster than people realise.
                    "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                    Ernest Hemingway.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post
                      You're not even close to what I was suggesting...

                      I'm just being the devil's advocate here, to glean any new info in regards to the islands themselves... in this case, are they really heavily defended with mines ect?
                      sea mines or land mines? either way, no clue, but you will need dedicated amphibs/troop transports to deploy landing craft at sea.

                      we know they have several SAM batteries and possibly a few ASM batteries.

                      https://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...na-sea-islands
                      the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                      A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                      A man dies and leaves his name,
                      A teacher dies and teaches death.
                      Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                        The US has no territorial claims in these waters and the locals can't afford to hire us. Why does the Navy need something to land on these reefs and artificial islands?

                        Pruitt
                        because the chinese may choose to use them to actively attack freedom of navigation. if they do so, you'll need to do more than just launch a few tomahawks at them.
                        the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                        A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                        A man dies and leaves his name,
                        A teacher dies and teaches death.
                        Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post

                          because the chinese may choose to use them to actively attack freedom of navigation. if they do so, you'll need to do more than just launch a few tomahawks at them.
                          Aren't almost all the ships traversing the SCS either transporting Chinese made goods overseas or bringing oil and raw materials to China?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by johns624 View Post

                            Aren't almost all the ships traversing the SCS either transporting Chinese made goods overseas or bringing oil and raw materials to China?
                            some will be transporting oil and goods to japan and the koreas, possibly exporting japanese electronics to other nations in the region.

                            lets be real, with the hatred that china still seems to hold for japan over the atrocities of WWII and the territorial disputes between those two over even more islands, would you put it past china to try to enforce a toll on ships not owned/flagged in china and not carrying chinese goods/goods bound for china to put the squeeze on japan?
                            the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                            A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                            A man dies and leaves his name,
                            A teacher dies and teaches death.
                            Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by johns624 View Post

                              Aren't almost all the ships traversing the SCS either transporting Chinese made goods overseas or bringing oil and raw materials to China?
                              I believe Japan, South Korea and Taiwan send a lot of oil tankers through the South China Sea. Russia may have traffic in these sea lanes as well. Vietnam and the US have trade that uses the area as well.

                              I understand the theory behind weather events playing hob with the islands in question, but the Taiwanese grounded an LST on the island they claim and it has been there for many years. When is the last time we heard of an oil rig being sunk in the Gulf by weather?

                              Pruitt
                              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Pruitt View Post

                                I believe Japan, South Korea and Taiwan send a lot of oil tankers through the South China Sea. Russia may have traffic in these sea lanes as well. Vietnam and the US have trade that uses the area as well.

                                I understand the theory behind weather events playing hob with the islands in question, but the Taiwanese grounded an LST on the island they claim and it has been there for many years. When is the last time we heard of an oil rig being sunk in the Gulf by weather?

                                Pruitt
                                It's happened in the North Sea - Sea Gem for example
                                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                                Comment

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