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Future submarine project deadlocked as French shipbuilder digs in on contract.

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  • #91
    Reports are coming in its now all signed and sealed ready to proceed.
    "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
    Ernest Hemingway.

    In english "silence" means yelling louder than everyone else.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post
      Reports are coming in its now all signed and sealed ready to proceed.
      Good. Looking from afar, it seems like Australia has a pretty good plan to keep her domestic shipbuilding industry running for a few decades. They are finishing up the Hobarts, then have the Anzac replacement program, the submarines, with some OPVs thrown in for good measure. That's good that everything doesn't wear out at the same time, unlike Canada. They need new frigates, icebreakers, fighter jets, plus other smaller projects, all at once.

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      • #93
        I expect it will have issues at the start, new sub design always do... but thanks to the Collins debacle most people won’t see the fruition of the work.
        "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
        Ernest Hemingway.

        In english "silence" means yelling louder than everyone else.

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        • #94
          Saw the big news last night, it's full steam ahead (for better or worse.)

          In the latest issue of the navy league of Australia magazine it quotes the Australian national office estimates of the build costs which indicates a cost blow out of up to 80% may occur, and a blow out of over 10% ($5B) has already been declared before any steel has been cut.

          If anything approaching those figures come about, well, words fail me.

          The navy league have been trying to get a breakdown of the submarine build costs for sometime, but no results, anyway fingers crossed with the first boat fully operational around 2035, (but I guess by then the the waters to our north will be teeming with nuclear submarines.)


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          • #95
            Originally posted by Aussie View Post
            Saw the big news last night, it's full steam ahead (for better or worse.)



            Strewth the Strine Navy are adopting the K class steam powered subs
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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            • #96

              Chuckle, I hope the French turn out a slightly better sub then the old "Kalamity class."

              British K-class submarine...
              The K-class submarines were a class of steam-propelled submarines of the Royal Navy designed in 1913. Intended as large, fast vessels with the endurance and speed to operate with the battle fleet, they gained notoriety and the nickname of "Kalamity class" for being involved in many accidents. Of the 18 built, none was lost through enemy action, but six sank, with significant loss of life, in accidents. Only one ever engaged an enemy vessel, K-7 hitting a U-boat amidships, though the torpedo failed to explode with what has been described as typical "K" luck; K-7 escaped retaliation by steaming away at speed.

              On steam, does this count....

              The main difference between conventional submarines and nuclear submarines is the power generation system. Nuclear submarines employ nuclear reactors for this task. They either generate electricity that powers electric motors connected to the propeller shaft or rely on the reactor heat to produce STEAM that drives steam turbines (cf. nuclear marine propulsion). Wiki

              Probably not.

              A serious question....
              If the Aussies asked nicely....and payed big bucks....would the Brits have ever sold the Astute class?



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              • #97
                The thing that worries me, is the pump jet propulsion... on paper it puts Australia in an exclusive group of nations who use pump jet, but we may never get to stretch the Barra' to it's full potential because it will use batteries. From what I can read into this, props are more efficient at low speeds, while the pump jet excels at high speeds. But with pump jet operating at low speeds, endurance decreases. In any case, if the Barra ends up with a prop it wont be a setback, a slightly slower sub but one with more endurance time.
                "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                Ernest Hemingway.

                In english "silence" means yelling louder than everyone else.

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                • #98
                  Not sure if plan B could even be possible.

                  Defence secretly considered walking away from the $50 billion French submarine deal during protracted and at times bitter contract negotiations, and started drawing up contingency plans for the new fleet.
                  The revelations are contained in a new report by the auditor-general that also confirms the program is running nine months late and that Defence is unable to show whether the $396 million spent so far has been "fully effective".

                  According to the report, the Federal Government's handpicked advisory group told Defence in 2018 to "consider alternatives to the current plan", when negotiations over a key contract appeared to be breaking down.
                  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-...ement/11867134
                  "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                  Ernest Hemingway.

                  In english "silence" means yelling louder than everyone else.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post
                    The thing that worries me, is the pump jet propulsion... on paper it puts Australia in an exclusive group of nations who use pump jet, but we may never get to stretch the Barra' to it's full potential because it will use batteries. From what I can read into this, props are more efficient at low speeds, while the pump jet excels at high speeds. But with pump jet operating at low speeds, endurance decreases. In any case, if the Barra ends up with a prop it wont be a setback, a slightly slower sub but one with more endurance time.
                    I think that you are right, regarding the pump jet performance. It would be like only running a Formula 1 engine in first gear. There wouldn't be enough juice to maintain high speed for anything more than a short sprint.
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                    • Originally posted by Aussie View Post
                      A serious question....
                      If the Aussies asked nicely....and payed big bucks....would the Brits have ever sold the Astute class?
                      It is not only a matter of buying the boat. Australia has no history of nuclear naval engineering and would have to create entire new branches and technical schools to provide crew and maintenance (unless the UK also allows the RAN full access to their training schools.)
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                      • The only sure thing about this deal is the notion of having twelve subs is now looking impossible.
                        "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                        Ernest Hemingway.

                        In english "silence" means yelling louder than everyone else.

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                        • I sure hope the Australian government is putting the funds they were going to use for this contract into an interest paying account. Many politicians would be using the opportunity to spend it on other projects. The term, "Free Money" comes to mind.

                          Pruitt
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                          • Originally posted by Herman Hum View Post
                            It is not only a matter of buying the boat. Australia has no history of nuclear naval engineering and would have to create entire new branches and technical schools to provide crew and maintenance (unless the UK also allows the RAN full access to their training schools.)
                            Exactly, I’ve been saying this for years. The lack of any local nuclear facilities makes it almost impossible to facilitate a nuke sub design.
                            Due to declining investment in the coal sector, nuclear power should be on the cards for large scale energy needs in the future.

                            I'm not sure if a nuke sub would be worth the effort, even the thought of decommissioning old subs sends shivers down the spine of those who do use them... huge sinkhole of money is required.
                            "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                            Ernest Hemingway.

                            In english "silence" means yelling louder than everyone else.

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                            • Originally posted by Achtung Baby View Post

                              Exactly, I’ve been saying this for years. The lack of any local nuclear facilities makes it almost impossible to facilitate a nuke sub design.
                              Due to declining investment in the coal sector, nuclear power should be on the cards for large scale energy needs in the future.

                              I'm not sure if a nuke sub would be worth the effort, even the thought of decommissioning old subs sends shivers down the spine of those who do use them... huge sinkhole of money is required.
                              So then ,does the RAN get out of the submarine business altogether ?
                              "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                              Samuel Johnson.

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                              • Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                                So then ,does the RAN get out of the submarine business altogether ?
                                It cannot, because Aus is a maritime nation. Therefore, submarines are an integral part of its naval strategy.
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